Auto vs Manual: The Ultimate Showdown

[FNBADAZ06]

I'm not sure you'd wanna be in between either car when the hit comes......even carrier catapult guys are encased in a ballistic proof cage below deck when they launch fighter aircraft from the carrier !!!! Parker's last attempt at the track caused the microphone in my camera to shut off when he spooled that monster up.

[Drewstein]

I see that Mike bailed out, since he had no credible response to our PB's being so close, yet his 60' is quicker and MPH higher with the extra 140 HP. I guess he's amazed how an old man does it too.

I might even be able to take Drew in a roll race too.

You could take me in a roll from 10-48 as you described. Due to the now infamous STR, you'll sit at a nice multiplication factor for most of that race. Only once your input speed reaches ~90% of the output speed does the torque advantage go away.

Most stalled vettes are going to sit around 2.2 STR based on their chosen stall rpm. I've seen 2.0 to almost 3 depending on your setup. If you put down 400ftlbs, then you could be enjoying 800+ through much of the race. That's more than I put down on the gates.

There's a reason a NA vette can pickup over half a second in the 1320 by just installing a decent converter. The manual guys have no comparative upgrade.

I bet you get through the 1/8 quicker than Steg and he back halfs your car with the power advantage.

But as I mentioned first in my original one liner, your shifting is the first advantage that comes to mind. The most important being the 1-2 when ET is concerned. Therefore you'll probably beat steg in a roll race to +-80 before the power advantage becomes more apparent as he gets to pull is taller gears.

Since I'm not Parker, I'm not going to go into valve bodies and other menial things when the greater discussion should be a fairly easy point to make. Autos ET easier.

[Drewstein]

This thread is very interesting.

As I'm another 800 year old with a stalled automatic transmission.

But I only have 346 whp .

It ran a best of 11.71 @117 mph.

Gee, I wonder how quick it would be with 200 more hp.

To put that in perspective, I had 680rwhp on my previous setup and I ran a 11.7 @ 140mph. The 60' was 2.0 lol.

The argument we're having is about cars with the traction to 60' and why they still ET the same with difference in MPH. In order to do that, the slower car has to get out in front of the higher HP car at some point in the race. Then the faster guy has to catch him at the traps with his car in full stride.

Imagine if we ran those times at the track together. You would be doing 117 as I fly by doing 140 which would be quite the difference, yet both cars were as quick.

[Two Fangs]

I agree, on almost every point. I do disagree with the last sentence in the second statement in post 52, maybe because I am menial, dunno.

[Desertdawg]

You know I really don't care how you get to the end of the track, if your fast then whats it matter? But I do want to point out: If a big HP stick beats a small HP slushbox it means the stick driver is king, the auto driver says maybe next time! Now if the low HP auto beats the high HP stick there will be 101 excuses... The auto driver says, Wow, bet I can't do that again... BTW- 101 excuses should not be compared to a ricer in anyway.

[HOXXOH]

one question....

If Parker and Drew ever race from a dig, can I flag them off by dropping Big Poppas bra?

[NicD]

I am rarely on here but just had to read this gem of a thread. LOL! An auto will outperform a manual in a drag race everytime and in many cases from a roll too even with less power. 60' and mph are only two variables in a very long equation. Keeping it up in the powerband along with torque multiplication on every shift is not something a manual is going to beat even taking into account the power losses associated by having that viscous coupling nor will you ever be able to shift as fast as an auto WHILE applying power to the tires the whole time. Now obviously that depends on the combo/powerband as to how much of an advantage an auto is going to have but it's still there regardless. Needless to say driving an auto is literally point and shoot and a lot easier on parts. Those two reasons are why I went auto when I started making any appreciable amount of power, well that and I like to win and have every pass be consistent.

[Two Fangs]

That's the key. Fast shifts are nice, but not having to break torque on the shifts is a huge advantage. Interesting, your point on torque multiplication. While some may see it as an advantage, it is really a necessary evil. The advantage is primarily used up getting the thing moving. This is one reason why two identical cars one with a stick and one with an auto, the auto will usually dyno less throughout the curve. There may be exceptions to this, but it is not the norm. Additionally, the loss of the stall torque ratio is not linear, STR diminishes rapidly once the turbine starts moving. We don't dyno an auto car from 2500 on and see a huge torque multiplication at low RPMs that slowly diminishes, unless the converter is toast, but that is another story entirely. Once gain, if I am being menial, just let me know. Still trying to get out of "in the weeds mode" I guess.

[NicD]

Interesting, your point on torque multiplication. While some may see it as an advantage, it is really a necessary evil. The advantage is primarily used up getting the thing moving. This is one reason why two identical cars one with a stick and one with an auto, the auto will usually dyno less throughout the curve. There may be exceptions to this, but it is not the norm. Additionally, the loss of the stall torque ratio is not linear, STR diminishes rapidly once the turbine starts moving.

We don't dyno an auto car from 2500 on and see a huge torque multiplication at low RPMs that slowly diminishes, unless the converter is toast, but that is another story entirely.

Once gain, if I am being menial, just let me know. Still trying to get out of "in the weeds mode" I guess.

Every time that car shifts with the correct torque converter for the application it will have a torque spike and subsequent torque advantage at least up until it's natural stall speed under load. AKA instead of dropping down to 4500 rpm on the shift it stays up at 5500 rpm and that 1000 rpm worth of torque multiplication more often than not offsets the power loss up top from the viscous coupling. It's the same reason that the "correct" converter will usually have no benefit from being locked in the last gear of the track assuming your standard every day street combos out there.

[HOXXOH]

You know I really don't care how you get to the end of the track, if your fast then whats it matter?

NO NO NO ! Don't ruin this thread with that logic crap. The whole point here is to continue the controversy.

[FNBADAZ06]

I LIKE IT !!!!! And, Dawg.....don't be derailing this thread Some spice need's to be thrown in around here every once in a while.

[azz061]

Well first off i was busy doing things for my daughter who had Gallbladder surgery on Sunday. Tom as for you i will put it in lamens terms next time i see you i will show you what happens when you run your mouth see ya at the track. Now after getting my new clutch installed i can see a major difference in my car and were the horsepower was not utilized with a GM stock clutch. As for Victors times being almost the same as mine i totally can understand it as he has 70,000 miles and about 500 passes in the 1/4 mile with his car. I have a total of 3,000 miles between two C6 z06 i have owned and only 38 passes in my car on a stock clutch. So i have no problem with my times as i would bet if many of you got into my car with a stock clutch you could not hit my PB of 10.71 in 25 attempts. So now that i have the total package of parts i will be interested to see what the car does. So interesting facts also: The day i ran consistent 10.7 to 10.8 passes Victor ran a best that day of 11.007 so i was 3 tenths on average faster. The day Victor goes to the Track with the best DA of the year not only did he run a PB so did alot of others. So no comparison. The other fact is until your car can run back to back 10's at the track on a regular basis your PB times are meaningless so got play with some of your buddies in their wheel chairs. The only consistent 10 second Corvettes on this forum to date are myself,and Mike Gary. Victor is close but is not a consistent 10 second car but will be as soon as his build is complete. Running a number once or twice in ideal conditions does not mean your car is in that class.

[Two Fangs]

Interesting, your point on torque multiplication. While some may see it as an advantage, it is really a necessary evil. The advantage is primarily used up getting the thing moving. This is one reason why two identical cars one with a stick and one with an auto, the auto will usually dyno less throughout the curve. There may be exceptions to this, but it is not the norm. Additionally, the loss of the stall torque ratio is not linear, STR diminishes rapidly once the turbine starts moving.

We don't dyno an auto car from 2500 on and see a huge torque multiplication at low RPMs that slowly diminishes, unless the converter is toast, but that is another story entirely.

Once gain, if I am being menial, just let me know. Still trying to get out of "in the weeds mode" I guess.

Every time that car shifts with the correct torque converter for the application it will have a torque spike and subsequent torque advantage at least up until it's natural stall speed under load. AKA instead of dropping down to 4500 rpm on the shift it stays up at 5500 rpm and that 1000 rpm worth of torque multiplication more often than not offsets the power loss up top from the viscous coupling. It's the same reason that the "correct" converter will usually have no benefit from being locked in the last gear of the track assuming your standard every day street combos out there.

OK, I gotcha, I think

I am going to make a couple of statements that I take as fact, I am not trying to be menial, I am just working on this torque multiplication thing. Because I believe we differ in opinion and experience and I am always down to learn something new. Additionally, I take them as fact and look forward to having them rebuffed, that is how we (or maybe just me) learn

• Torque multiplication is highest when the turbine is stationary and the vehicle is at its maximum stall speed, in essence when the full value of the STR is realized

• When full STR is realized, the vehicle is not moving, and thanks to the stator, the fluid is impacting the turbine blades with maximum force

• As soon as the turbine begins to move, centrifugal force and the angle of the fluid hitting the turbine blades changes things. This torque advantage at max stall speed rapidly diminshes not only due to the amount of fluid capable of being directed towards the blade due to being slung outward and not able to pass through the stator, but because the fluid that does pass through the stator cannot hit the turbine blades as effectively.

• Because the fluid moves outward, less fluid passes through the stator and the stator begins to freewheel, the multiplication ratio goes away very fast

• Torque spikes on both a manual and an auto exist or we would not bust the tires loose on a shift with both transmission styles (we have both seen this on a dyno during an all-gear run) even with an RPM drop

So while I am not calling Shenanigns, what you describe goes against what I believe to have assembled as a relatively good grasp of converter function. Either that or I did not fully understand your statement, which just goes to show how dumb I am.

I do, agree however, that two identical cars, tailored to the application , one with a 3500 RPM two step and a manual, and one with a 3500 stall and a footbrake; that the auto car has the advantage. It just does not have it for long once the car is moving, and torque multiplication to any measurable degree for the remainder of the trip down the dragstrip should not occur unless the turbine is stalled.

Once again, free discussion here, not trying to talk down to anyone or get challenged to another race or a hot dog eating contest or anything, just working on getting into the nitty-gritty and exchanging what we know through what we have learned and experienced.

To others reading this who may not be so technically minded - please feel free to use Google and give it your best shot.

[NicD]

I agree with you on most of what you said but I still see the advantage going to the stalled auto on every shift up until it's stall RPM not just at the launch although I agree that's the biggest advantage. Again though this all depends on powerband and RPM. Certain combos have a much larger advantage with the stalled auto because it keeps them up in the powerband where they are actually making more power since ultimately that's what matters. I know we are generalizing around N/A combos but look at the HUGE advantage behind something like a procharger where it's VERY rpm dependent on where it makes it's power and a stalled auto would absolutely destroy it's manual trans equivalent. Heck the same can be said about turbo cars as well. I've got two graphs somewhere that I will have to dig out of my Camaro and it's comparison between RPM and MPH on the same scale. It's not really relevant to the topic but it does a good job of showing how much larger the window gets so to speak when the converter is doing it's job. Sure there is a torque spike on the manual but that's after you haven't been applying power to the tires and it's got that "shock" factor which can more easily break the tires loose, disrupt the suspension unloading/loading, etc. Autos just do a much better job of softening the hit of a shift all while applying power to the tires down the entire track AND keeping it up in the powerband while multiplying torque albeit a small amount but it's still doing it.

[NicD]

When it comes down to it, this is all that matters.

[Two Fangs]

LOL Thanks for chiming in! And to add, in FI, especially turbos and centris, autos are a tremendous advantage

[Two Fangs]

OK, so now that that is settled, let's get back to HOXXOH vs azz061

[Desertdawg]

You know I really don't care how you get to the end of the track, if your fast then whats it matter?

NO NO NO ! Don't ruin this thread with that logic crap. The whole point here is to continue the controversy.

Soory guys, let my try a different approach.....

Us auto guys have a free hand to feel teh boobeez, you manual guys go play with your stick!

[Desertdawg]

Victor has... 70,000 miles and about 500 passes in the 1/4 mile with his car.

ummm 500 passes at 1/4 mile each is only 125 miles, not 70,000!

[Two Fangs]

He said "and about" Not "which is about"

[Desertdawg]

don't nit pick my Mike quotes, he's to busy playing with his stick to notice the difference

[Two Fangs]

Sorry, guess I was being menial again....

[Marco]

I will beat everyone.....

Yeah I said it, but think about it. I'll have the special super secret speed from my auto, while the new wide body will make me look as fast as a ZO6.

Add in my awesome skills and your all losers, street,strip,roll,top end,or just cruising for teh ho's I got you all beat.

And if you think you got a chance, I'll toss in my Atomic Orange paint and BOOM, end of argument!

Never seen a pumpkin do a burnout...do they leave a big mess?

[Desertdawg]

and I was trying to be funny but now I have to look up another word....

[SLAMMER]

Well first off i was busy doing things for my daughter who had Gallbladder surgery on Sunday. Tom as for you i will put it in lamens terms next time i see you i will show you what happens when you run your mouth see ya at the track.

Now after getting my new clutch installed i can see a major difference in my car and were the horsepower was not utilized with a GM stock clutch.

As for Victors times being almost the same as mine i totally can understand it as he has 70,000 miles and about 500 passes in the 1/4 mile with his car.

I have a total of 3,000 miles between two C6 z06 i have owned and only 38 passes in my car on a stock clutch. So i have no problem with my times as i would bet if many of you got into my car with a stock clutch you could not hit my PB of 10.71 in 25 attempts.

So now that i have the total package of parts i will be interested to see what the car does.

So interesting facts also:

The day i ran consistent 10.7 to 10.8 passes Victor ran a best that day of 11.007 so i was 3 tenths on average faster.

The day Victor goes to the Track with the best DA of the year not only did he run a PB so did alot of others. So no comparison.

The other fact is until your car can run back to back 10's at the track on a regular basis your PB times are meaningless so got play with some of your buddies in their wheel chairs.

The only consistent 10 second Corvettes on this forum to date are myself,and Mike Gary. Victor is close but is not a consistent 10 second car but will be as soon as his build is complete.

Running a number once or twice in ideal conditions does not mean your car is in that class.

I call BS a time is a time. That is an established fact. Carried through many sports includind the world of drag racing. Your best time if only achieved once is still an official time. UNLESS YOU HAD BEEN FOUND TO BE DOPING.

Then all bets are off!!

Dose that make sence to you Mike?

SLAMMER