Ted Y Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I read an article recently about how BMW was looking at going back to a six cylinder with forced induction for the next M Series. It said they were looking at a turbo setup along with an electrically driven blower (ducted fan?) which could spin up incredibly fast to deliver low RPM boost until the turbos could spin up. It sounds very cool and cutting edge. Any thoughts on this? I think it's an awesome idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Fangs Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I have not heard of forcing air onto the turbine, that is interesting. The Mechatronik Division of EcoMotors has developed an electrically controlled turbocharger, using an electric motor to achieve high RPM rapidly. I have also heard that they are exploring the opportunity able to use the turbo to generate voltage through the same magnets and windings using the generator principle, allowing the alternator to disengage while cruising, increasing available power and economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChadC Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 never thought about that 2 snails. ..full of win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Y Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 Here is the article: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/beltless-blower-electrifying-the-supercharger-tech-dept It's not so much pressurizing the cold side of the turbo as it would be in parallel to the turbo system. I could be wrong. Pure conjecture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Fangs Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 It takes some pretty serious power (kW or HP) to pressurize a manifold as the article suggests. My bet is they only have half of the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Y Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 What about a leaf blower and a big alternator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Fangs Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 haa ha ha No, unfortunately a leaf blower is an air mover, but not an air compressor. And before you say "Yeah, but a Roots blower is just an air mover, too", the Roots blower has tremendously low leakage rates compared to a fan found in a leaf blower. Plus, the HP found in largest electric industrial hand-held leaf blowers do not have near enough power to compress or move the air required to pressurize a running engine. so there, LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Y Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 Just another example of how relevant facts can destroy internet debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Y Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 Consequently, I think a roots blower would be a 10 on the "Fun Meter". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Fangs Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 A roots or a screw type supercharger that provides instant boost at any RPM is the best recipe for perma-grin ever invented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Y Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 According to the Ideal Gas Law, this whole thread is full of hot air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Fangs Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 You are absolutely correct, yet without Avogadro and Boltzmann, we wouldn't have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOTV8 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 O-rings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCMSH Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 O-rings. No, it's all ball bearings these days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FNBADAZ06 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 It's amazing just how much horsepower is consumed just spinning a roots style blower when making boost. WE have electric power steering on production cars now, and I've read that electric A/C compressors are in the near future...all which will get rid of the parasitic drag these devices have on an engine. But an electric positive displacement blower ? I've heard that the latest 465+ HP Hemi's of today couldn't even turn over a roots blower of a top fuel engine when in full boost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Y Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 I was under the impression they were talking about an electric centrifugal type blower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Fangs Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 To Victor: we actually have electric A/C compressors now. They are primarily used on hybrids so the A/C will still work when the engine is not running. They are hermetic, like the ones used in a refrigerator. To Ted: I also gleaned that they are using some sort of electrical centrifugal design. I am also not buying it, there has to be some pieces missing if they are looking at using that to make boost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FNBADAZ06 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 To Victor: we actually have electric A/C compressors now. They are primarily used on hybrids so the A/C will still work when the engine is not running. They are hermetic, like the ones used in a refrigerator. To Ted: I also gleaned that they are using some sort of electrical centrifugal design. I am also not buying it, there has to be some pieces missing if they are looking at using that to make boost. Aaahhh....makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOXXOH Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 It's amazing just how much horsepower is consumed just spinning a roots style blower when making boost. WE have electric power steering on production cars now, and I've read that electric A/C compressors are in the near future...all which will get rid of the parasitic drag these devices have on an engine. But an electric positive displacement blower ? I've heard that the latest 465+ HP Hemi's of today couldn't even turn over a roots blower of a top fuel engine when in full boost. Considering that a top fuel car pumps enough air for 12+ gallons of nitro, through the blower in under 5 seconds at a 3 to 1 air/fuel ratio, it's an enormous requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Y Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 Well if the electric blower doesn't have enough power to force feed a manifold, perhaps they could use it to crush ice and make slushy goodness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Fangs Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 CH3NO2 is actually closer to 1.7:1. It is an incredibly needy fuel. Well if the electric blower doesn't have enough power to force feed a manifold, perhaps they could use it to crush ice and make slushy goodness? Indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercharged88 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I have not heard of forcing air onto the turbine, that is interesting. The Mechatronik Division of EcoMotors has developed an electrically controlled turbocharger, using an electric motor to achieve high RPM rapidly. I have also heard that they are exploring the opportunity able to use the turbo to generate voltage through the same magnets and windings using the generator principle, allowing the alternator to disengage while cruising, increasing available power and economy. you havnt heard of forcing air into the turbine? quite a few military vehicles are supercharged and turbo charged... mercedes and there old slk is supercharged and turbo charged. the charger would be the low end boost until the turbo takes over when it has spooled up.. i have been for a few years been looking into building my motor now in my vette to a supercharged twin turbo set up but not found someone to undertake the tunning aspect of it. so its possible.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Fangs Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I have not heard of forcing air onto the turbine, that is interesting. The Mechatronik Division of EcoMotors has developed an electrically controlled turbocharger, using an electric motor to achieve high RPM rapidly. I have also heard that they are exploring the opportunity able to use the turbo to generate voltage through the same magnets and windings using the generator principle, allowing the alternator to disengage while cruising, increasing available power and economy. you havnt heard of forcing air into the turbine? quite a few military vehicles are supercharged and turbo charged... mercedes and there old slk is supercharged and turbo charged. the charger would be the low end boost until the turbo takes over when it has spooled up.. i have been for a few years been looking into building my motor now in my vette to a supercharged twin turbo set up but not found someone to undertake the tunning aspect of it. so its possible.. Give me one example of air being forced into a turbine. I am acutely aware of using a supercharger and a turbocharger in tandem, as I am also aware of using a turbocharger and a blower on the old two stroke diesel applications. So again, I ask, give me one example of someone forcing air, not exhaust gas into a turbocharger turbine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercharged88 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 like i just said quite a few military vehicles do this... there is not valve to switch from the supercharger to turbo like there is in say a mercedes the charger feeds the turbo straight away.. i know ive worked on them many many many many times. when i was in the army.. m113- hemmits, pls and so on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Fangs Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 like i just said quite a few military vehicles do this... there is not valve to switch from the supercharger to turbo like there is in say a mercedes the charger feeds the turbo straight away.. i know ive worked on them many many many many times. when i was in the army.. m113- hemmits, pls and so on I am not sure we are on the page. I get that the supercharger is feeding the turbo, not a big deal, but it is feeding it on the compressor side, not the turbine side. So, again, how are you getting air to the turbine side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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