Cross Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Alright since the last thread got well... off topic I thought it might be a good idea to just make a thread that focuses on my efforts to build a tune and go from there. I will transfer over as much as I can, but basically what we have here is someone from another tuning platform (Tuner Studio used with Megasquirt) learning HP Tuners which not only has more options but quite a few differences. At this time here is what I am facing: 1) Idle issues after the car warms up 2) Upon started when cold the car goes to 1900rpm and quickly drops back down to normal start up 3) Gas Mileage is better but still sucks... 4) Injectors are still the Saab 39.7x Flow. I made a new table but as pointed out no injector data is available. So I am working on the VE and MAF tables. 5) Wanting to lean out the Cruise Sections if at all possible to increase gas mileage while cruising. I am getting ready to make more changes but honestly at this point we are getting to where I am reading more to figure out just where things are and how to effect them. I really am used to having a mirrored AFR table to the VE table and thats how I set the AFR I want for each cell in the VE and then I can modify the VE table while driving to make it match with the ECU not doing fuel correction (aka it turned off). Current Tune 11.20 11.20 Log 1 11.20 Log 2 11.20 Log 3 11.20 Log 4 11.20 Log 5 11.19 Before Idle Changes High Speed Pulls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Fangs Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Just so I don't have to go hunting, what is the year, engine and trans? What mods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Posted November 23, 2011 Author Share Posted November 23, 2011 Ohh yeah i should add that; 2001 LS1 243 Heads Milled Comp 222/224 .566/.568 112LSA Cam Crane Gold 1.7 Adjustable Roller Rockers BBK SSI Intake Manifold BBK 80mm TB BBK Below Black Wing Intake UDP 25% Light Weight Flywheel Headers, no cats, full exhaust. 39.7lbs Saab Injectors E85 Thats about it but I may be forgetting something small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Fangs Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Let's start with the basics. Where did the injectors come from? Any way to get data from the seller? Without good injector data, and no wideband, this is really going to be nothing more that a goose chase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Posted November 23, 2011 Author Share Posted November 23, 2011 I have a line on a wideband but no the seller I can not get an answer from and the injectors are out of a Saab here is the information I have on them: Alright the part number is: 280150431 34.15 358.9 258.2 If these numbers are correct which they seem to be from various sites at the Vette's 01 fuel pressure level these are 39.77lbs injectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Fangs Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 OK, I am going to research these in my spare time and see if I can come up with some worthwhile data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Posted November 23, 2011 Author Share Posted November 23, 2011 Thank you!! Alright I have been reading as usual... I should be doing homework but now I can not seem to stop. Anyway Nic had brought up how much timing I was running so I have been trying to find some information on MBT for other E85 NA Setups to compare with. So far I have not found many to look at but I found Nic talking about E85 on another board and its quite helpful. (I will post some of the info in the E85 thread we have here). http://www.ls1gto.co...t=338621&page=2 Seems 30 is the max suggested then and I am at 32. I am going to keep reading but before not knowing how much to decrees my tune by until now I think I will give it a try today! Ok so I did a new spark map, after reading I decided I wanted to try something else with my idle section too and see if it helps. But either way here is the new tune, I went to 29 degrees of max timing to see how that feels and slowly increase. It would be better if I could do it at the track and see MPH or on a Dyno but can not right now. 11.23 tune file Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Posted November 23, 2011 Author Share Posted November 23, 2011 Ok I went out and did runs with spark maps I made for 29 all the way to 32. I started working with the VE table too. In the end I felt that 31 degree's felt better than 32 degree's. However I was making VE Table changes so.... it might have been a little dis-cue but well for now it stays until I can finish the VE tuning and then I can upload my table changes I saved most of it with before and after going through the logs but I am still getting things dialed in more each time as I learn/get used to this setup. 11.23 Newest Tune 31 Degrees WOT Timing Original VE before changes I will do some more tuning in a little while as it seems my class was canceled so more time to tune. Also it seems so far the idle is better, as I made changes to the VE table it went from almost dead on to hunting again... could just be that I will reset fuel trims yet again this time and see how it does. But for the most part its def getting there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Posted November 26, 2011 Author Share Posted November 26, 2011 Alright after more reading I decided the changes I made to the VE table were wrong, so I spent the morning of Thanksgiving redoing them with my son helping me. We got them to where all are within 1 to -1. (Low end obviously) After that I reconnected the MAF and saw it pulling fuel again so I went ahead and started tuning the MAF (Started this around 9am finished around 2:30pm with breaks inbetween obviously). Got a few good runs in and data logged them felt I was getting it pretty close but obviously only getting the lower end on the MAF. Today I did another log because it felt like the car was surging at low RPM low speeds (Driving around the parking lot in 2nd) and I did some further changes. I think I am pretty damn close at this point. Current Tune 11.25 Idle seems stable but still high on cold starts need to address that next however it seems to not give me the issues it did before at times it drops some when letting off but not majorly. Here are the data logs from Thanksgiving before the last set of changes to the MAF today: First Log Second Log I also ran into another Vette owner, has a Silver C6 I got his number and gave him an ACE card. Hopefully he signs up nice guy. Also seems my Traction Control System is giving me a scare. The Drivers Front Wheel Speed Sensor has malfunctioned twice... once while turning and scared the hell out of me when the car got loose more than I expected seeing as I had it in Competitive mode to being with... Trying to find out why its doing it seems like I might be replacing a Wheel Speed Sensor... if I can figure out how the heck to access it and make sure it doesn't just need to be cleaned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Posted December 5, 2011 Author Share Posted December 5, 2011 Alright I have been playing with the idle and playing and while the car idles great while driving it seems to have a 50-60% chance of upon starting up hitting 2k rpms then coming down. It does not always but it bothers me I do not want it doing this and I am looking for some idea's on where I should look. Everything else has come along nicely, I really need to get on the dyno to tell the end results up to and wait for the chance to get to see Nic and see just what he thinks about increasing gas mileage further and if there is any more power in it. But for the time being finishing this last little thing would be great, what am I over looking that could cause this odd high idle on start up at times? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Posted December 11, 2011 Author Share Posted December 11, 2011 OK, I am going to research these in my spare time and see if I can come up with some worthwhile data. I just realized the link I included was to the wrong injectors sorry. http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm Have to scroll down but the data is: Also I have been working on the tune more obviously. Still looking at the same stuff but here is what I have so far as I know I am running way to rich WOT. Current tune just finished modifying this morning: http://www.2shared.c...ng_VE_Tabl.html This is a log from last night: http://www.2shared.c...o_race_log.html The log was before further changes to the VE table to adjust the high amount of fuel I am throwing away. I am working on tuning more today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Fangs Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 I found them on that website with a little searching. I have put the word out, but I guess they are just not popular injectors to build data tables for. As far as start-up flare, what do your start-up tables look like? It helps me if you just print screen, save then as an image and stick them in the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Posted December 12, 2011 Author Share Posted December 12, 2011 I will do all that and show you the changes I made today, just walked back in the door from working on the tune again. I will have logs and the pictures you request everything tonight for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Fangs Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Sounds good. Do not rush, I am about to bounce off for the night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Posted December 12, 2011 Author Share Posted December 12, 2011 Sounds good, when your back they will be here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Posted December 12, 2011 Author Share Posted December 12, 2011 Data log from tonight: http://www.2shared.com/file/8UJO6Oso/1211_Driving_after_tuning.html Newest Tune File: http://www.2shared.com/file/0SAeQMzQ/01_C5_Z51_Cross_Tuning_VE_Tabl.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Fangs Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 I made it back after a surprisingly busy week. I will try to take a look when I get caught up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Posted December 27, 2011 Author Share Posted December 27, 2011 Alright I have been playing around ans made a few new tunes I have not put much time into the 25 degree setup yet just made it for a tester on the next test n tune at SIR but so far inbetween everything else going on I have blown off a lot of steam lately just going out and driving then playing with the tune. I am now running it on the 27 degree spark table as I could never get NicD's advice out of my head on how the car seems to be running a lot of timing. I did some testing and 27 degrees does feel a hell of a lot better than 31 to the old butt dyno but its a day on the dyno or the track that will really prove it. Here are the current tune files: 25 Degree Tune (Not really worked on much yet) 27 Degree Tune (My current tune) 31 Degree Tune (Played with but here for testing) And here is a data log from yesterday. Now I need to look into WOT tuning and getting the high O2 readings down then i hopefully should be close enough to justify a dyno visit where I am not wasting time trying to figure everything out. Log from yesterday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Posted December 27, 2011 Author Share Posted December 27, 2011 Two Snails (Or anyone else who would like to chime in) I have a general question, on tuning the MAF I have noticed after tuning VE and working on the MAF for some time I still get fuel trim changes (LTFT) with the MAF plugged in. Does this mean I need to tune the MAF further or is it normal (Normally between -1 to -3 but I have seen a -5 some times)? Also tuning for the upper RPM/WOT Ranges my thought is to use the VE Table from what I am used to with SD Setups in Megasquirt but here I do not think that is the case. I looked around and found a few things I am going to try but my WOT is rich and I would like to drop it down some (See the log above for an example) with the MAF still (As I am not sure why I would remove it at this point) what is the method you recommend or a guide you like all the ones I find do not go into much detail for the WOT ranges or I am over looking the right guide its possible I just got back to this today so all the old files I was looking at are not left open in my browser and apparently i did not bookmark any. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Posted December 28, 2011 Author Share Posted December 28, 2011 Ok so after tuning the car's upper tables with PE off I felt the VE dead to rights on and started trying to tune PE via a thread on LS1 Tech. I watched the WOT runs mv chart to see how they looked and tried adjusting. I have gone from 1.160 to 1.080 over 2 runs and I am not seeing any changes... which worries me. I am uploading the data logs and my newest tune since I made more changes to the VE table but honestly at this point I am concerned as to why I am not seeing a change... yes I have not made a HUGE change but it says to only make changes in the .010 increments and I obviously went a little faster but have gotten what appears to be no real change in the sections I have been changing. What am I missing? Table I am changing is Engine>Fuel>Power Enrich>EQ Ratio vs RPM Data Log 1 Data Log 2 Newest Tune 27 Degrees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NicD Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 For starters log the commanded a/f pid in the scanner and do a full redline WOT blast. Your tune doesn't look like it's setup properly to allow correct PE operation. You've (or the previous tuner more than likely) disabled one area of torque management without doing so to the others. There is no way your heads/cam car is pushing 1.00 g/cyl worth of airflow either. All of these are little things specific to particular operating systems that those DVDs and "tuning" classes don't teach you. I'm really torn on just fixing it for you or at least hinting towards it because it's staring me in the face even though I charge for stuff like this. Not trying to be a dick so don't take it that way. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Posted December 29, 2011 Author Share Posted December 29, 2011 I understand NicD and I really thank you for the insight because today I pretty much came to the conclusion I am doing this wrong. Current 27 Degree Tune Run 1 Run 2 Run 3 I am really not getting the results I expected so I am obviously still misunderstanding pieces. I will make the additions you requested now and log the whole trip to Phoenix tomorrow. If I am not completely dense I will try to understand your hints. Thank you again very much NicD, I can not say that enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Posted December 30, 2011 Author Share Posted December 30, 2011 NicD here is the log you requested. Requested Commanded AFR Pulls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NicD Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Watch your commanded A/F when you go WOT, notice anything? See any torque related tables for WOT that aren't zero'd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 The MAF seems odd to me, the Dynamic Cyl. Air sudden jumps to 1, I see a dip in the spark advance, TPS goes 99-100 instead of being steady not sure that's a big thing. I didn't think the MAF should look like that though. Commanded AFR stays at 9.8 but for WOT should it not be 8.7 or 8.4? But the mv on the O2 Sensors reads high which I would take to be much more than 9.8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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