Frustrated $1k at Bromley's and car still flooding

[dss LT1]

I will try to keep this short and on point. My 72 LT-1 has been a frequent visitor to Bromley's Performance Corvettes in Chandler AZ over the past few months. I went to him on recemmendation from someone on this forum. We have rebuilt the front suspension, new steering box, new MSD ignition, and loads of work on the fuel system. On the fuel system alone we are now at the magic $1k mark. The car will run great for a tank or two and then start flooding itself at idle, fouling the plugs and blowing all kinds of smoke. The carb (original Holley) has been rebuilt, the choke has been removed (he hacksawed it off - not cool -had no idea he would take a hacksaw to my carb), an in-line filter was added and the gas tank was drained and cleaned - all in the past 3 months and to no avail.

I really didn't want to flame any mechanics here. They have a tough job working on these old cars. He did a great job on the suspension and steering... and I have been patient... During these vistis to Bromley's I also had my front fender cracked because he put on tires that were the wrong size/rubbing (I didn't even get out of the parking lot) and paid to have my original distributor rebuilt with a pertronix points eliminator, the distributor still doesn't work, thus we went to a new unit from MSD (= more $$$). On the new MSD, he didn't even give me the extra springs & bushings they include in case I ever need to change the mechanical advance.

I called Doug at Bromley's today to see if he had any ideas... his suggestion was to replace the carb... (isn't a rebuilt carb supposed to be as good as a new carb, obviously depending on the skill of the one doing the rebuilding...). So in my opinion he isn't standing behind the $1k of fuel system work already done, just blaming it on an old car. He basically said it wasn't fair that he would get the blame for an old car not running right just because he worked on the carb, and my reply was, yes it is your problem when it only runs right for 3 weeks! The only solution I would have accepted at this point is some kind of refund so I can go elsewhere and that is not something he was willing to do.

Any ideas on where in the Phoenix area I can take my car to get it running properly?

[Donbecker]

I went to Doug after being recommended on the forum. I think he did a good job on my exhaust, even though it was abit high IMO.

That aside, are you opposed to doing the work yourself?

When I got ahold of my 76 it was a basketcase. I could have paid thru the nose to get stuff fixed, or just do it myself.

IMO, unless you have a ton of money to sink into an old car (and don't care about getting it back out) then having someone else do everything is unrealistic.

"The car will run great for a tank or two and then start flooding itself at idle"

Okay, so the carb is flooding. Quickest fix would be to swap out carbs.

I have my original Q-jet that may fit, it ran ok (rebuit it right before I went to EFI) that you could use for awhile if it fit.

Sounds like you're obviously leaking fuel. I have heard of some of the old carbs warping, the gaskets then don't seal right, you could try doubling the gaskets up, I've heard that works.

May also be something really tiny like the float going out.

Let me know if you are in a pinch and don't have a place to work, mi garage, su garage.

-Don

[dss LT1]

I run out of time and ability quickly. I'd love to be able to do some of this myself but I farm out the stuff I can't handle. I have kicked around buying another carb for 2 reasons; 1) to replace the one that is on there and 2) to have a spare that I can fool around with and teach myself how they work. Since he hacksawed my original I will probably buy a replacement.

That said, Bromley rebuilt this carb and has had it apart at least 2 other times and it still doesn't work right. It isn't leaking fuel, have new gasket and base plate, at idle it is just dumping gas into the engine. One suggestion was to check to see if the floats are brass or plastic, the brass ones may solve the problem. Now if I only knew how to take the carb apart and check the floats.

[Donbecker]

Taking it apart to do a rebuild isn't hard...

It is a holley, I don't have the book on that, but I do have the one on the Q-jet...

On the Q-jet (maybe similar to the holley) there are three main parts to the body of it, and over time the flatness of these parts (where they come together with the gasket) can change, resulting in the gasket leaking gas...

So the idea was to double up the gaskets to compensate.

[Donbecker]

Here are some links, let me know if you'd like some help with it...

http://www.kitcarmag.com/techarticles/142_0503_carb/

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/howto/45798/

http://69camaro.20m.com/photo4.html

http://www.camaros.net/techref/articles/holley_3.htm

[Donbecker]

It really sounds like the carb, but what shape is the rest of the fuel system in?

If it didn't have enough gas I would suspect other stuff.

One easy test is a fuel pump test, where you check that you're getting enough flow.

I've done that one before as well.

[r40734]

I sounds a lot like the float is getting saturated or filling with fuel. I went through that a couple of years ago with a pickup I have and a few years before that the Holley carb on my '57 Chevy caught on fire because of bad float. :mad Destroyed the paint on the hood, but I luckily got it put out before the whole car burned to the ground.

The local bookstores usually have in stock books and manuals on the Holley cars. Mike Urich has even went so far as to write different ones for each type of Holley. They are typically priced between $15-$20. A lot less than the $1K you have already spent, and you will be able to do the work yourself the next time.

Donbecker is right about the warping issue, but if you say it is not leaking in that area, then check the float and the accelerator pump area.

If I still had my books, I would give them to you, but I swore to never use another Holley carb in my life... so no need for the manuals.

Good luck.

[r40734]

One more thing:

Are you using an electric fuel pump or a mechanical?

[dss LT1]

Using the original style mechanical pump. it is newer but I'd have to check the previous owner's receipts to find out how old/new.

The fuel tank was just drained and cleaned - that and the sock appeared OK, though they said sucked out alot of crap.

[Donbecker]

I have taken out my fuel tank about 7 times...one thing that happened to me was that one of the rubber lines got pinched between the tank and the metal surround..would run ok on the street and would die on the highway, but that was too little fuel.

[Guest Simpson36]

Why don't you give these folks a call. They are right here in Phoenix and we have at least on good first hand reference to their work from a forum member.

http://www.carburetorspecialties.com/Pages/contact.htm

Flooding is a sunk float, a bad needle and/or seat, or too high fuel pressure. The carb shop can take care of the first two. You'll need to test the fuel pressure and replace the pump or add a regulator it the pressure is too high.

[r40734]

Using the original style mechanical pump. it is newer but I'd have to check the previous owner's receipts to find out how old/new.

The fuel tank was just drained and cleaned - that and the sock appeared OK, though they said sucked out alot of crap.

Being a mechanical pump on a street car it unlikely, though possible, that your fuel pressure is too high. If you would have said you had an electric pump then I would say check the fuel pressure. It's not a bad idea to check it anyway just to make sure.

WIth them sucking a bunch of crap out of the fuel tank, I hope they installed a new fuel filter afterward. Other than that pointless point, dirt and rust in the bottom of the tank won't cause it to flood.

I'm still leaning towards the float.

[dss LT1]

New filters in the carb and a new in-line filter after the tank was cleaned. I am going to look at the carb filters tonite... if they are clean then I think we move on to the floats.

[sloryde]

Its pretty common on an old car with a dirty (although its been cleaned out fuel tanks and lines hide alot of dirt that comes up later) fuel system to get a little dirt stuck between the needle & seat in the carb. and flood out. Once thats cleaned out it will run fine for a while then it can happen again. He may be cleaning the needle/seat whenever you bring it back and its o.k. for a while, till it happens again. It also could be the carb. Even though its been rebuilt, those old holleys are pretty unreliable. A newer Holley has alot of improvements and is a 100x more reliable than an early 70's Holley even when they were new 30+ years ago. I think it may be time for a new tank and carb. Just my 2 cents. Thanks Joe

[92ZR1Wannabe]

Using the original style mechanical pump.  it is newer but I'd have to check the previous owner's receipts to find out how old/new.

The fuel tank was just drained and cleaned - that and the sock appeared OK, though they said sucked out alot of crap.

Being a mechanical pump on a street car it unlikely, though possible, that your fuel pressure is too high. If you would have said you had an electric pump then I would say check the fuel pressure. It's not a bad idea to check it anyway just to make sure.

WIth them sucking a bunch of crap out of the fuel tank, I hope they installed a new fuel filter afterward. Other than that pointless point, dirt and rust in the bottom of the tank won't cause it to flood.

I'm still leaning towards the float.

All right, Ill toss in my .02 here.

I had a 73 Dodge Dart Sport 340, pretty fun little car. HOWEVER it was doing basically the same thing.

What was happening, The inside of the gas tank was rusting / flaking and the little flakes of rust (yes even through the fuel filter) were getting caught in the needle valve that the float is attached to. So even though the float was trying to operate normally , the rust in the little valve that the float attaches to was keeping it from shutting when the bowl level was getting high. The result: Stumbles , flooding , fouled plugs.

I ended up replaceing the gas tank.

[Desertdawg]

Hacksawing your ORIGINAL holly was wrong, he should have known that, he at least owes you the cost of a suitable replacement "year/model correct" carb.

He should reimburse you for the repairs to the fender.

The cost of the pertronix should be his if he can't make it work, then asked you to purchase a second brand. Why should you be expected to repair the same problem twice without even taking it out of his garage???

He is in the business of repairing old corvettes, don't let him tell you it's your cars fault...

[Guest 71airstrike]

Here is a vote for the carb repacement.

I did this on my 71 vett and never looked back.

in my opnion swap out with an Elderbrock 750 cfm carb. eazy to tune (if any) and install.

There are enough weekend wrenchers here that we can show up for a "corvette saturday" and do the work for you if you are not comfortable.

BTW the MSD should have come with 2 other sets of springs. If he doesnt have them, then the MSD could be a used unit off of another car. Some one else upgrading to something and he gave the guy $20 for it.

[Phoenix FRC]

I used to have a Chevy truck with a 454 and it would load up at idle, that's a simple fix if you have a vacuume gauge.

The carb has two fuel mixtures, one for idle and one for high speed.

If the idle is to rich, while the car is idleing the engine loads up, the second you touch the throttle it dies... right? and won't start, gas smell everywhere... Yes? push the throttle 100% to the floor and she will fire.

If this is your symptom, its the idle mixture. easy fix.

If not this... its the float and it sounds like a good idea to look at that needle & seat to make sure they aren't gunked or scratched.

That's one of the problems with fuel system cleaners, they will loosen the dirt in the tank & fuel lines and then it ends up getting clogged in the carb or the injectors.

Did you use something to clean out the tank?

I'll help you swap the carb depending on the date. I haven't worked on a carb in a few years but it not so tough, never was.

[ICULUKN]

Give ADS a call. They are carb specialists. They are located in Chandler. They do ALL my work. I can recommend them without hesitation.

[Donbecker]

If you are thinking about tank replacement, I took my original out and sealed it with some POR-15 sealant (made by the same company).

http://www.por15.com/PRODUCTS/FUELSYSTEMRE...12/Default.aspx

At this point I've pulled the tank at least 7 times, maybe more.

I could probably do it in one day.

Let me know if you want me to help seal your tank.

[dss LT1]

Thanks for all the help. My action plan is:

Swap the Holley for an Edelbrock 750 tomorrow. A very nice Corvette Forum member is going to help and lend me the carb. Hopefully we'll be able to narrow the list of possible causes. We'll also check vacuum and fuel pressure. With the Holley off we can check the needle seat and float.

Demand a replacement Holley carb from Bromley along with the MSD parts he failed to give to me. If he doesn't agree, then it is off to the BBB and probably an attorney.

If the tank needs attention I will certainly take you up on your offer Don.

Thanks again for the assistance. I'll let you know our progress.

[sloryde]

Good call on the tank sealant, that stuff works great at keeping the rust/dirt sealed to the tank and not in the carb. I agree with the Edelbrock carb. idea. They are very simple to tune, very reliable and usually run great right out of the box with little or no tuning. I originally suggested a new Holley because of the original looking appearance on an original LT-1, but if thats not an issue then you would probably be better off with the Edelbrock and some tank sealant. Joe

[dss LT1]

I want the car as original as possible but not for NCRS or any judged shows. I've done that before and it is not alot of fun IMO. As long as I have the parts to put it back to original (or the next owner) then I am OK.

[dss LT1]

OK so I have a borrowed Edelbrock 750 on there now. I need to retard the timing a bit as it is fully advanced now. Pulled all of the plugs and cleaned & regapped them. So far so good.

Now that I have taken the Holley apart myself I understand better what was going wrong. The secondary fuel bowl was full, the needle was stuck forcing the float to sink. I am going to go with an Edelbrock permanently as soon as it arrives from JEGs.

Doug Bromley agreed to look for a date coded carb housing (not sure if that is the term) so we can get my Holley back to being operational and coded/matched to the car. All of the bowls, jets, etc are OK so only need the main piece. I plan to keep it in case I ever sell the car to a NCRS type. He was reasonable on the phone today - we discussed the work he did on the car and why the Holley is not as reliable as expected. As I said in the original post, he did a full new front suspension and steering on the car that turned out great. He did stand behind the crack in the fender and had it repaired. Just frustrating that it happened at all. Hoping we can resolve the Holley now.

Also, no truth to the idea posted above that he re-sold me a used MSD distributor.

[F22trainer]

Now that I have taken the Holley apart myself I understand better what was going wrong. The secondary fuel bowl was full, the needle was stuck forcing the float to sink. I am going to go with an Edelbrock permanently as soon as it arrives from JEGs.

...I was going to suggest that, but sounds like you figured it out. I had an identical problem on my Pontiac GTO years back.

She had a 250 cid that put out 230 HP - 6 cyl (those were at the crank #'s) with the same 4bbl carb you mention.

Hope everything starts to come together, as it sounds like it is. I can't imagine Bromleys not stepping up, from all I've heard.

Keep us posted... and good luck!