Tire Repair - have you heard this?

[Chameleon]

Tom, understand the cables didn't solve his problem.  That wasn't the point.

 

The point was that I (a female) made the effort to at least attempt to render assistance to Mikey (a man).

 

If I saw another Vette broke down on the side of the road, I WOULD stop to see if I could help.

 

I believe that is one of the 10 Corvette Commandments.

 

That is all...

[insatiableOne]

10 hours ago, JLs Mistress said:

As long as its not in the sidewall I have never had a plug fail me yet ....

 

 

This

When I worked on many different pretentious and some not so ..vehicles is all we used. Seen some of my off road buddies pop in two or three and never had an issue. (in the same hole)  The only thing is if you do not trim them down to a 1/4" or so they have been known to pull out.  And I do not like the ones that need glue. I also call b.s. on worrying about speed and plugs. So what if one did come out, it is just going to be a slow leak. Or what ever size the file was, big deal. Throw another plug in and call it a day. I have never had one pull out, or fail except on just tooo big a hole it did not seal to begin with. 

15 hours ago, JohnU said:

Can you beat this for pretty?

 

This is all I have ever used. Just would trim it a little bit, and or do a burn out

 

Forget a patch, anything that big should be replaced or vulcanized with a real plug and patch. Doubt too many-  if any shop here has a machine to do vulcanization except perhaps for conveyor belts and industrial. 

[JLs Mistress]

2 hours ago, insatiableOne said:

 

 

This

When I worked on many different pretentious and some not so ..vehicles is all we used. Seen some of my off road buddies pop in two or three and never had an issue. (in the same hole)  The only thing is if you do not trim them down to a 1/4" or so they have been known to pull out.  And I do not like the ones that need glue. I also call b.s. on worrying about speed and plugs. So what if one did come out, it is just going to be a slow leak. Or what ever size the file was, big deal. Throw another plug in and call it a day. I have never had one pull out, or fail except on just tooo big a hole it did not seal to begin with. 

 

This is all I have ever used. Just would trim it a little bit, and or do a burn out

 

Forget a patch, anything that big should be replaced or vulcanized with a real plug and patch. Doubt too many-  if any shop here has a machine to do vulcanization except perhaps for conveyor belts and industrial. 

most of the kits I had came with a razor blade just for that purpose...

[Grape Ape]

I always use dikes. Less chance of hurting myself...

 

NOOOOO, NOT THOSE DIKES....

[Chameleon]

11 hours ago, mrhusker said:

I always use dikes. Less chance of hurting myself...

 

NOOOOO, NOT THOSE DIKES....

 

[Grape Ape]

Okay, enough talk about flat tires. Jinxed myself at work tonight. Another golf cart tire with a screw in it.

 

 

[FNBADAZ06]

Ironically, I ran into this same issue last week when I had my tires switched over to my new wheels at Discount. I had used a plug kit to fix a hole left in the middle of my treaded area on my run flats when I picked up a huge screw. When discount discovered I had used fix a flat to get the leak initially sealed to get home, then put the plug in, they originally offered to patch the tire until I told them about my use of the plug kit. Tech told me that they would have been able to repair the tire with a standard patch but because I used a plug kit,  company policy dictated that he couldn't perform any additional repairs. He also told me that company policy wouldn't even allow him to mount my plugged tire, but he went ahead and remounted the tire for me anyways.

 

Additionally, Pirelli also apparently has a standing policy of not allowing Discount to repair any of their run flat tires.....replace only even if the leak is in a repairable area in the treaded zone !!!!!!

[TheCMSH]

mo money, mo money, mo money

[Chameleon]

I know that manufacturers have varying policies regarding repairs, and the resulting effect on tire warranty and/or usability, i.e. can be repaired, but the speed rating is lost.

 

My tire is not a run-flat.  It has lots of tread left.  The hole is in the middle of one of the treads, and is not near the edge of the tire.  I call bullshit on their "tire is ruined" mantra.  Maybe it is a Discount company policy, but it is a shit policy and they just lost my business.

[HOXXOH]

4 hours ago, FNBADAZ06 said:

Ironically, I ran into this same issue last week when I had my tires switched over to my new wheels at Discount. I had used a plug kit to fix a hole left in the middle of my treaded area on my run flats when I picked up a huge screw. When discount discovered I had used fix a flat to get the leak initially sealed to get home, then put the plug in, they originally offered to patch the tire until I told them about my use of the plug kit. Tech told me that they would have been able to repair the tire with a standard patch but because I used a plug kit,  company policy dictated that he couldn't perform any additional repairs. He also told me that company policy wouldn't even allow him to mount my plugged tire, but he went ahead and remounted the tire for me anyways.

 

Additionally, Pirelli also apparently has a standing policy of not allowing Discount to repair any of their run flat tires.....replace only even if the leak is in a repairable area in the treaded zone !!!!!!

So take your tire repair business to an Hispanic neighborhood. Those guys have experience in repairing anything that even resembles a tire.

[SLAMMER]

9 minutes ago, HOXXOH said:

So take your tire repair business to an Hispanic neighborhood. Those guys have experience in repairing anything that even resembles a tire.

 

 How about this Tijuana taxi........?

[Ted Y]

I have had the pleasure of attending two separate tire forensic classes taught by tire engineers. The second class was taught by the Chief Safety Engineer from Bridgestone who took over after the Ford Explorer Fiasco and had a lot to do with Bridgestone's recovery.

 

He said that the plug kits are not waterproof and can allow water to penetrate into the plies and belts. Once that happens, corrosion can occur and cause air to enter until the belts separate and the tire fails. The only proper repair (for some companies) is dismounting the tire and patching from the inside and sealing the hole to keep water out. Even if your tire did not get wet, they have no way to know the integrity of the inner tire is safe. 

Also, some tire repair voids the speed rating on almost all manufacturers. Some of the manufactures don't allow any repairs. He also said that if a tire is run that has less than 75% of the recommended pressure for a load it was designed to carry, it causes enough damage to the sidewalls to void the speed rating. ANY travel on a flat tire also voids the safety of that tire and it should be replaced, even if it has good tread and can be made to hold air.

 

All of this is because tire failures lead to injury, death, and damage, which leads to lawsuits.

 

Don't blame Discount Tire for their policy. It's dumb people who hired lawyers. Don't be cheap with your tires. I wouldn't drive that tire faster than 85 mph if I were you.

 

But, I just investigate accidents for a living, what do I know?

[Ted Y]

Here is the power point, skip down to about page 45.

Consumer - Tennent.pdf

[FNBADAZ06]

1 hour ago, HOXXOH said:

So take your tire repair business to an Hispanic neighborhood. Those guys have experience in repairing anything that even resembles a tire.

No need to....I repair my runflats on my own. I could have just let the fix a flat product handle it, but I chose to use a plug in the final repair.

[Chameleon]

Ted, I understand the safety issue.  I also recognize the litigation issue.  I won't get started on what I think about idiots who wreck their vehicles just because a tire went flat. 

 

My gripe here is that Discount would have repaired the tire if I hadn't plugged it.  The legitimate issues you cite of driving on it when flat, entry of water into the tire, and potential damage to the integrity of the inner tire structure would still be the same - Discount would have no way of knowing this information about the tire that could compromise safety.  

 

The only variable here is the plug - without it they would do the repair, and with it they say the tire is ruined.  That is the issue on which I call bullshit.  

 

I just wanted it correctly repaired, and Discount was no help at all.   I now have a compromised tire that I won't take over 65 mph (for my own peace of mind).

[FNBADAZ06]

49 minutes ago, Ted Y said:

I have had the pleasure of attending two separate tire forensic classes taught by tire engineers. The second class was taught by the Chief Safety Engineer from Bridgestone who took over after the Ford Explorer Fiasco and had a lot to do with Bridgestone's recovery.

 

He said that the plug kits are not waterproof and can allow water to penetrate into the plies and belts. Once that happens, corrosion can occur and cause air to enter until the belts separate and the tire fails. The only proper repair (for some companies) is dismounting the tire and patching from the inside and sealing the hole to keep water out. Even if your tire did not get wet, they have no way to know the integrity of the inner tire is safe. 

Also, some tire repair voids the speed rating on almost all manufacturers. Some of the manufactures don't allow any repairs. He also said that if a tire is run that has less than 75% of the recommended pressure for a load it was designed to carry, it causes enough damage to the sidewalls to void the speed rating. ANY travel on a flat tire also voids the safety of that tire and it should be replaced, even if it has good tread and can be made to hold air.

 

All of this is because tire failures lead to injury, death, and damage, which leads to lawsuits.

 

Don't blame Discount Tire for their policy. It's dumb people who hired lawyers. Don't be cheap with your tires. I wouldn't drive that tire faster than 85 mph if I were you.

 

But, I just investigate accidents for a living, what do I know?

Did the engineer have a particular opinion on the fix-a-flat products ?

My run flat never went flat, but only registered a low pressure on the DIC at 25 lbs. I could have just left the fix-a-flat product seal the leak and gone on my merry way

[HOXXOH]

11 minutes ago, Chameleon said:

Ted, I understand the safety issue.  I also recognize the litigation issue.  I won't get started on what I think about idiots who wreck their vehicles just because a tire went flat. 

 

My gripe here is that Discount would have repaired the tire if I hadn't plugged it.  The legitimate issues you cite of driving on it when flat, entry of water into the tire, and potential damage to the integrity of the inner tire structure would still be the same - Discount would have no way of knowing this information about the tire that could compromise safety.  

 

The only variable here is the plug - without it they would do the repair, and with it they say the tire is ruined.  That is the issue on which I call bullshit.  

 

I just wanted it correctly repaired, and Discount was no help at all.   I now have a compromised tire that I won't take over 65 mph (for my own peace of mind).

Why 65 MPH? Is there something that happens at 66 or more that makes 65 safer? Did you make any attempt to get it repaired to your satisfaction at any place other than DT?

I have a plugged Mich SS that I've run to a sustained 110-120 for several 10+ mile stretches across NV earlier this month. Safe or unsafe?

As far as safety is concerned, that's an individual consideration. It's not regulated any more than stupidity.

 

I'm not sure I understand the "water into the tire" issue. You get water in the tire when it's initially inflated, especially on a humid day. It's one reason for pressure fluctuations due to heat. I see no logical way for water to get past a properly installed plug to the tire interior. Any time actual water would or could get in a tire, it'd evaporate anyway.

[HOXXOH]

From the article Ted posted:

 

The NHTSA report concluded that there was no need to add an aging requirement to Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) No. 139 because the current standard has made passenger tires more robust, crash data shows that tires are performing better, and tire pressure monitoring systems (TPMS) are alerting drivers of under inflation. Since service and storage conditions vary widely, accurately predicting the actual serviceable life of any specific tire based on simple calendar age is not possible. Replace Old Tires Even if There is Tread Remaining •

Vehicle Manufacturers Recommend Replacement at 6 Years •

Tire Manufacturers' Warranties Expire at 6 Years •

Tire Manufacturers Recommend Replacement at 10 Years •

Industry Experts Recommend Replacement at 10 Years

 

Kinda makes you wonder when tire dealers claim tires are junk after 5 years.

[Chameleon]

43 minutes ago, HOXXOH said:

Why 65 MPH? Is there something that happens at 66 or more that makes 65 safer? Did you make any attempt to get it repaired to your satisfaction at any place other than DT?

I have a plugged Mich SS that I've run to a sustained 110-120 for several 10+ mile stretches across NV earlier this month. Safe or unsafe?

As far as safety is concerned, that's an individual consideration. It's not regulated any more than stupidity.

 

I'm not sure I understand the "water into the tire" issue. You get water in the tire when it's initially inflated, especially on a humid day. It's one reason for pressure fluctuations due to heat. I see no logical way for water to get past a properly installed plug to the tire interior. Any time actual water would or could get in a tire, it'd evaporate anyway.

 

65 because that is generally an acceptable speed to flow with traffic in the right lane of the freeway.  Right lane provides ready access to the shoulder in the event of tire failure.  Higher speeds mean lanes out in the middle or even the HOV lane, meaning more traffic involved and greater distance to a safe stopping place in the event of a sudden, complete failure.

 

The water on the inside of the tire for mounting is contacting a sealed rubber surface.  Water entering an improper plug is contacting the internal structure (e.g. metal banding) inside the tire tread around the hole.  Entirely different things.

[Chameleon]

7 minutes ago, HOXXOH said:

Kinda makes you wonder when tire dealers claim tires are junk after 5 years.

 

They're talking smack to sell tires. 

 

Just like helmet dealers will say a motorcycle helmet is shit after a certain time because the crush foam inside the shell has "deteriorated." 

[JohnU]

It's called covering one's behind.  From the manufacturer down to the retail seller.

[Ted Y]

18 hours ago, HOXXOH said:

Why 65 MPH? Is there something that happens at 66 or more that makes 65 safer? Did you make any attempt to get it repaired to your satisfaction at any place other than DT?

I have a plugged Mich SS that I've run to a sustained 110-120 for several 10+ mile stretches across NV earlier this month. Safe or unsafe?

As far as safety is concerned, that's an individual consideration. It's not regulated any more than stupidity.

 

I'm not sure I understand the "water into the tire" issue. You get water in the tire when it's initially inflated, especially on a humid day. It's one reason for pressure fluctuations due to heat. I see no logical way for water to get past a properly installed plug to the tire interior. Any time actual water would or could get in a tire, it'd evaporate anyway.

I edited it to 85 mph which is the lowest speed rating. You're a nitpicker and you should have been an attorney. The fact that you didn't crash or suffer a tire failure running 110-120 for 10+ miles is anectodal and not proof it was safe. It IS safer to replace a damaged tire rather than running that fast on a tire with a plug.

 

Plugs are not waterproof according to the tire engineer. Any contact with water has the POTENTIAL (whether it occurs or not) to allow water into the belts. They don't know where or when or how long a customer drove before arriving at the tire shop. Their policy may not be to repair it. It's their liability if the tire fails after the repair.

 

I'm just trying to share some things I learned from people who know far more than I. What is safe according to you may be different than what is safe to me. Likewise, what a tire engineer considers safe is important to me. TJ told us he would not drive a car with a plugged tire and that's his expert opinion. 

You can go as fast as you want on your patched tire. 

[Ted Y]

18 hours ago, HOXXOH said:

From the article Ted posted:

 

The NHTSA report concluded that there was no need to add an aging requirement to Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) No. 139 because the current standard has made passenger tires more robust, crash data shows that tires are performing better, and tire pressure monitoring systems (TPMS) are alerting drivers of under inflation. Since service and storage conditions vary widely, accurately predicting the actual serviceable life of any specific tire based on simple calendar age is not possible. Replace Old Tires Even if There is Tread Remaining •

Vehicle Manufacturers Recommend Replacement at 6 Years •

Tire Manufacturers' Warranties Expire at 6 Years •

Tire Manufacturers Recommend Replacement at 10 Years •

Industry Experts Recommend Replacement at 10 Years

 

Kinda makes you wonder when tire dealers claim tires are junk after 5 years.

 

The first tire forensics class I went to, the engineer talked about how rubber hardens over time. The rate of hardness increase depends upon exposure (mostly to ozone, heat, and UV rays). He actually has a rubber hardness gauge to test his own tires. If tires are properly stored out of the sun in controlled temps, they can go far longer than 5 years. Other tires, if mounted, driven and sat outside, may not. If a tire has any cracking on tread or sidewall, it is a sign the rubber is too hard, but not the only measure of "too hard".

 

Most manufacturers set their warranties to cover the expected use of the tire they sell. (just like auto manufacturers set their vehicle warranties)

 

Just trying to help understanding. I'm not trying to defend a corporation. Feel free to think they're just greedy.

[HOXXOH]

8 hours ago, Ted Y said:

I edited it to 85 mph which is the lowest speed rating. You're a nitpicker and you should have been an attorney. The fact that you didn't crash or suffer a tire failure running 110-120 for 10+ miles is anectodal and not proof it was safe. It IS safer to replace a damaged tire rather than running that fast on a tire with a plug.

 

Plugs are not waterproof according to the tire engineer. Any contact with water has the POTENTIAL (whether it occurs or not) to allow water into the belts. They don't know where or when or how long a customer drove before arriving at the tire shop. Their policy may not be to repair it. It's their liability if the tire fails after the repair.

 

I'm just trying to share some things I learned from people who know far more than I. What is safe according to you may be different than what is safe to me. Likewise, what a tire engineer considers safe is important to me. TJ told us he would not drive a car with a plugged tire and that's his expert opinion. 

You can go as fast as you want on your patched tire. 

Yeah, I was being picky. I did say that safety is a personal thing, which means that when nothing happens that causes a problem, then it was safe. It only becomes unsafe when you believe there is a potential to be a problem and the problem actually happens. 

BTW, according to Tirerack and NHTSA L and M speed ratings are 75 & 81 respectively. N is 87. Maybe 85 is an old spec that has since been revised. (being picky again) 

[HOXXOH]

8 hours ago, Ted Y said:

 

The first tire forensics class I went to, the engineer talked about how rubber hardens over time. The rate of hardness increase depends upon exposure (mostly to ozone, heat, and UV rays). He actually has a rubber hardness gauge to test his own tires. If tires are properly stored out of the sun in controlled temps, they can go far longer than 5 years. Other tires, if mounted, driven and sat outside, may not. If a tire has any cracking on tread or sidewall, it is a sign the rubber is too hard, but not the only measure of "too hard".

 

Most manufacturers set their warranties to cover the expected use of the tire they sell. (just like auto manufacturers set their vehicle warranties)

 

Just trying to help understanding. I'm not trying to defend a corporation. Feel free to think they're just greedy.

I was just noting the differences between the vehicle mfg, the tire mfg, the tire warranties, and the industry experts, in relation to tire dealers. Tire dealers are sales people, who may (most likely) know nothing about tire construction or the difference between Shore A and Shore D, but will tell consumers their tires are dead at 5 years.

I let my good Shore A gauge go when I sold that business. I should probably pick up a cheap digital one for personal use, since my DR's are getting long of tooth.