The '78 is getting a rebuild

[finallyavette]

I don't think I've met anyone but lastc3, but there is no better time to introduce ourselves since my 78 threw a rod/bearing in the driveway this weekend. It's a ZZ4 crate with about 10k on it, and a rebuilt BW Super T10.

I pulled the top end of the engine with hoping maybe all I did was bend a push rod. No such luck.

So I'm in process of tearing it down and depending on the damage either rebuilding or putting in something over 400hp. I'm also going to do the 5 speed install.

Here are some pics of the initial engine , ugly as it is. It's going to be a a year long project most likely, but I have always wanted to tear down an engine myself.

Will probably pull the engine and transmission at once this week, and put the engine on a storage stand so I can tear the lower half down.

GOALS:

• 400hp+ with either a rebuild or crate
• 5 speed with OD
• rebuild suspension front and rear
• paint it something metallic

Looking for any pointers and tips. Thanks in advance.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2790514/vette%20teardown/IMG_0391.JPG

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2790514/vette%20teardown/IMG_0417.JPG

[finallyavette]

Reference Links: http://www.westcoastengines.com/#/chevy-350s-383-strokers/4558517227 http://www.carcraft.com/howto/ccrp_0803_engine_balancing/viewall.html http://www.hotrod.com/howto/7234_crankshaft_prep/ http://www.fivestarengines.com/replacement.html http://myworld.ebay.com/fivestarengines/?_trksid=p4340.l2559 http://www.jegs.com/p/Blueprint-Engines/Blueprint-Engines-SB-Chevy-383ci-405HP-440TQ/761056/10002/-1 Current Engine: http://www.jegs.com/p/GM-Performance/GM-Performance-Parts-ZZ4-350-Turn-Key-Engine/1137092/10002/-1

[TheCMSH]

Good luck! We love build/repair threads so post up progress pics as you go

[LastC3]

sorry to hear she let got ...... but a build is always an adventure ...... keep us informed !!!!

[finallyavette]

More reference links: Possible TKO 500/600 http://www.5speedtransmissions.com/c2_c3_tko_pkg.html http://ampperformance.com/ http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CMG-17X-600-6-X/?rtype=10

[finallyavette]

sorry to hear she let got ...... but a build is always an adventure ...... keep us informed !!!!

I think the c6 sharing the garage has been picking on it.

[Desertdawg]

Looking forward to seeing your build, please keep the pics and progress posted. I'm glad to see you looking at Jegs and Summit for a motor too, still wary of 5star from a few I saw years ago, I don't know if they are better now but seeing 5 different size cylinder bore's in one 8 cylinder engine scared me!

[NoWorries]

Put an LS9 in and make the C6 jealous.... Since the motor is already toast. Perfect time to checkout the innards. The parts are not hard to deal with, but rather the measurements like ring gap, bearing clearances, etc. Have been seeing alot of motors on craigslist also.

[LastC3]

sorry to hear she let got ...... but a build is always an adventure ...... keep us informed !!!!

I think the c6 sharing the garage has been picking on it.

yeah .... C3s have a tendency to be a little jealous ......

Your current set up should be good to go with just a refresh .... (honed, rings, bearings etc) and a valve train cleanup ..... going this route could afford headers as well maybe .....

and there's alway the option of going to an LS motor .... they're not all that expensive these days and set up with the new ECM systems that are available these days, its not that bad of a project ...... If I had do it over again ... I think that's the direction I would go .... now after having done a couple .... they guys are just wrapping up a beautiful 55 Chevy with an LS3 ..... can't wait to hear this one run .....

just thinking out loud ...

[Buccaneer]

I don't think I've met anyone but lastc3, but there is no better time to introduce ourselves since my 78 threw a rod/bearing in the driveway this weekend. It's a ZZ4 crate with about 10k on it, and a rebuilt BW Super T10.

I pulled the top end of the engine with hoping maybe all I did was bend a push rod. No such luck.

So I'm in process of tearing it down and depending on the damage either rebuilding or putting in something over 400hp. I'm also going to do the 5 speed install.

Here are some pics of the initial engine , ugly as it is. It's going to be a a year long project most likely, but I have always wanted to tear down an engine myself.

Will probably pull the engine and transmission at once this week, and put the engine on a storage stand so I can tear the lower half down.

GOALS:

• 400hp+ with either a rebuild or crate
• 5 speed with OD
• rebuild suspension front and rear
• paint it something metallic

Looking for any pointers and tips. Thanks in advance.

With only 10k on the motor, it should still be under warranty...yes? Good luck with the new motor swap.

[Bromley's Corvettes]

First thing I would do is see what can be saved with the ZZ4. You can get 400+ h.p out of a ZZ4 with the right cam and carb and long tube headers and a real good exhaust system. With a 5-speed it will be a blast to drive and get good MPGs. . You might get lucky and your crank will be able to be turned and the rods re sized and block bored 30 over and new forged pistons and good rings and bearings and better springs and bigger cam and be good to go.

[finallyavette]

I'm the 3rd owner of this engine/vette, the last guys put on about 7k miles in total, but the more I take stuff apart it seemed like a bubba job in the engine compartment. I picked this 78 up for 6k a year ago, the oil looked like sludge when I brought it home. The first oil change and seafoam was metallic but the 2 after that were fine. I figured eventually it would lose a bearing since the last guy was running it with syrup. The timing was way to advanced. It pinged at about 55 mph pretty bad. The first week I had it a rebuilt the carb, set the timing, ect. It ran great the past year and was running the best it ever had the last month or so; I was waiting for something to explode. LOL I'm going to keep it 'old school' carb'd but considering a MSD ignition and distributor. It's never going to be a trailer queen; it's going to get driven until the wheels fall off. Then replace the wheels and repeat. It's a 78 and there were many built and sold; plus its not numbers matching so no reason to keep it 'all natural'. Might as well drive it like I stole it. I've been researching and it seems like the zz4 is pretty flexible up to about 400-425 HP, then it starts to get pricey. It's currently completely stock as far as I can tell and I think when I ran the block and head #'s it was the 355HP zz4. Finding a good balance between maintenance and performance seems harder that I thought. Push rods show no wear. I pulled the heads on one side and it looks fine. There is a little carbon build up on the pistons but the cylinders are smooth and no scratches. I think I am going to pick up a polished intake and replace the stamped steel rockers with rollers. I won't know until I get underneath but I am pretty sure the stock zz4 have powdered metal piston rods. Hopefully, I just spun the bearing and didn't break the rod. The plan is if I spun the bearing to replace it and make sure I didn't tear up the crank. If the crank is damaged then that opens up a world of possibilities. I have also been trolling craigslist for engines, while at the same time pricing parts. Seems like depending on the damage I could pick up a nice 383 for just a bit than if I have to get a new rotating assembly. http://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/pts/2987064958.html - 383 http://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/pts/3020408811.html http://phoenix.craigslist.org/cph/pts/3006804795.html http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/ptd/2963329163.html Might make a few calls. ==== Question: Any of you guys that do or have pulled an engine on a c3, do you pull it with the transmission? Or can I support the transmission bell and unbolt it from the block then lift the engine out. A new 5 speed is going in but was thinking it might be easier to drop the T10 from below after the engine is out. I'll keep trying to post pics as I go along. === @doug Side pipes baby!!

[finallyavette]

So if the crank isn't shot, I got some ideas. From the research so far: if I add an intake, chrome moly steel push rods, comp cam (probably lt4 hot cam), and springs/ 1.6 roller rockers. I can get close to 400 HP (give or take) and still keep the zz4 heads I have while getting an aggressive rumble for side pipes from the cam. Maybe we upgrade the Edelbrock 1406 as well. More Reference Links: ZZ4 Aluminum Cylinder Head Assembly Aluminum performance head - used on ZZ4 engines Completely assembled with 1.94"/1.50" valves 163cc intake port zz4 stock head casting # 10088113 http://www.jegs.com/i/GM+Performance/809/12480002/10002/-1 http://www.jegs.com/i/Comp+Cams/249/08-601-8K/10002/-1 Heads http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TFS-30400010/ http://www.jegs.com/i/RHS/784/12318-05/10002/-1 Intake The ZZ4 "factory" intake is a base model Edelbrock Performer intake with GM's logo on it. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-7501/ Possible Cams http://www.jegs.com/i/GM-Performance/809/24502586/10002/-1 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TFS-31402081/ http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LUN-54756LUN/ Potential Builds http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0712phr_small_block_chevy_5_stage_build/viewall.html http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/power-hidden-within-your-zz4-engine-244.html

[Bromley's Corvettes]

I'm the 3rd owner of this engine/vette, the last guys put on about 7k miles in total, but the more I take stuff apart it seemed like a bubba job in the engine compartment.

I picked this 78 up for 6k a year ago, the oil looked like sludge when I brought it home. The first oil change and seafoam was metallic but the 2 after that were fine. I figured eventually it would lose a bearing since the last guy was running it with syrup.

The timing was way to advanced. It pinged at about 55 mph pretty bad. The first week I had it a rebuilt the carb, set the timing, ect. It ran great the past year and was running the best it ever had the last month or so; I was waiting for something to explode. LOL

I'm going to keep it 'old school' carb'd but considering a MSD ignition and distributor. It's never going to be a trailer queen; it's going to get driven until the wheels fall off. Then replace the wheels and repeat. It's a 78 and there were many built and sold; plus its not numbers matching so no reason to keep it 'all natural'. Might as well drive it like I stole it.

I've been researching and it seems like the zz4 is pretty flexible up to about 400-425 HP, then it starts to get pricey. It's currently completely stock as far as I can tell and I think when I ran the block and head #'s it was the 355HP zz4. Finding a good balance between maintenance and performance seems harder that I thought.

Push rods show no wear. I pulled the heads on one side and it looks fine. There is a little carbon build up on the pistons but the cylinders are smooth and no scratches.

I think I am going to pick up a polished intake and replace the stamped steel rockers with rollers.

I won't know until I get underneath but I am pretty sure the stock zz4 have powdered metal piston rods. Hopefully, I just spun the bearing and didn't break the rod.

The plan is if I spun the bearing to replace it and make sure I didn't tear up the crank. If the crank is damaged then that opens up a world of possibilities.

I have also been trolling craigslist for engines, while at the same time pricing parts. Seems like depending on the damage I could pick up a nice 383 for just a bit than if I have to get a new rotating assembly.

http://phoenix.craig...2987064958.html - 383

http://phoenix.craig...3020408811.html

http://phoenix.craig...3006804795.html

http://phoenix.craig...2963329163.html

Might make a few calls.

====

Question:

Any of you guys that do or have pulled an engine on a c3, do you pull it with the transmission? Or can I support the transmission bell and unbolt it from the block then lift the engine out.

A new 5 speed is going in but was thinking it might be easier to drop the T10 from below after the engine is out.

I'll keep trying to post pics as I go along.

===

@doug Side pipes baby!!

I pull engine and tranny one at a time. You can put a jack under the tranny and when you get the engine out I use tie down straps through the bell housing dowel pin holes and put the straps on the lip if the fire wall. That way you can take the jack out so you can roll the car around and out side and clean everything real good.

[Bromley's Corvettes]

You will drive your self crazy looking at all the combos of parts and engines lol. You should talk to a shop that does it all the time and come up with a budget. It will really help if you have a set $ amount you want to work with. There are tons of really cool things you can do if $ was not a problem lol. You can have a 500.h.p 383c.i easy these days but you will need to bring the rest of the car up to that level to be able to use it. Brakes and susp and cooling system and fuel system will all need to be in top shape.

[finallyavette]

@doug yeah but that's fun of it - finding what to spend my money on. I'm probably looking to spend around $10k but that's going to include replacing all the bushings with poly, and maybe a composite rear spring. First is the engine and 5 speed, then we'll see what I got left. Hah. Like I said its a driver and I want to balance the performance with maintenance. Thanks for the tranny tip - I was thinking that it would be easier to do them separately.

[finallyavette]

Heads are off - other than some minor carbon build up they look good. Will probably get rid of the steel stamped rockers and put 1.6 springs/roller rockers in. Apparently the stock zz4 springs will take the lift of a lumpy cam but might as well change em.

Brake cleaner and a brush and we'll be carbon free.

Decided to pull the engine and trans as a unit. Disconnected the shift linkage and drive shaft today. All that's left is clutch support that bolts to the block and the engine mounts.

[finallyavette]

hrmmm ... I don't think the rod is supposed to look like that. All bent wavy and wedged against the crank? What do you guys think?

Cylinders are pretty mirror smooth so this engine has more miles on it that I was told. Oh well. Will need honed.

Going to tear it down and make sure it didn't kill the crank. If it did then after all the parts I'd need and machining, might as well buy a 383 for 3-4k or find another lower.

More reference links:

http://www.dpmpower.us/smallblock.htm

http://www.theenginestore.com/engines.html

[Bromley's Corvettes]

Well there's your problem lol.

[finallyavette]

Just putting together what's in my engine - hopefully this helps anyone with the zz4 HO 355hp crate stock configuration. === Pistons === Brand GM Performance Manufacturer's Part Number 10159436 Part Type Pistons Product Line GM Performance Pistons Summit Racing Part Number NAL-10159436 Bore (in) 4.000 in. Piston Style Flat top, with four valve reliefs Piston Material Hypereutectic aluminum Wrist Pin Style Press-fit Pin Diameter (in) 0.927 in. Piston Ring Thickness 5/64 in. x 5/64 in. x 3/16 in. Quantity Sold individually. Notes High silicone aluminum. === Connecting Rods === Brand GM Performance Manufacturer's Part Number 10108688 Part Type Connecting Rods Product Line GM Performance Connecting Rods Summit Racing Part Number NAL-10108688 Connecting Rod Length Center to Center (in) 5.700 in. Connecting Rod Beam Style I-beam Connecting Rod Material Forged 4340 steel Connecting Rod Finish Shot-peened Wrist Pin Style Press-fit Clearanced for Stroker No Cap Retention Style Through-bolt Connecting Rod Bolt Brand GM Performance Parts Connecting Rod Bolt Diameter 7/16 in. Connecting Rod Bolt Material 4740 chromoly alloy Fastener Yield Strength (psi) 140,000 psi Connecting Rod Bolt Head Style Hex head Approximate Connecting Rod Weight (g) 600 Advertised Horsepower Rating (hp) 500 hp Advertised RPM Rating 6,500 rpm Weight Matched Set Yes Remanufactured No Balanced No Magnafluxed Yes === Crank === Brand GM Performance Manufacturer's Part Number 14088526 Part Type Crankshafts Product Line GM Performance Cast Nodular Iron Crankshafts Summit Racing Part Number NAL-14088526 Rear Main Seal Style 1-piece Engine Stroke (in) 3.480 in. Crankshaft Material Cast iron Engine Balance Internal Lightened No Requires Narrow Bearings No Rod Bearings Included No Main Bearings Included No Cross-Drilled Mains No Rod Journal Diameter (in) 2.100 in. Main Journal Diameter (in) 2.448 in. Balancer Bolt Thread Size 7/16-20 in. Crankshaft Snout Style Standard Quantity Sold individually. Notes This crank does not have a pilot bearing. === Heads === Brand GM Performance Manufacturer's Part Number 12556463 Part Type Cylinder Heads Product Line GM Performance ZZ4 Aluminum Cylinder Heads Summit Racing Part Number NAL-12556463 Cylinder Head Style Assembled Cylinder Head Material Aluminum Cylinder Head Finish Natural Combustion Chamber Volume (cc) 58 CNC-Machined Combustion Chamber No Intake Runner Volume (cc) 165cc CNC-Machined Intake Runner No CNC-Machined Exhaust Runner No Combustion Chamber Style Open chamber Intake Port Shape Rectangular Intake Port Location Standard Exhaust Port Shape D-port Exhaust Port Location Raised Spark Plug Style Angle Intake Valves Included Yes Intake Valve Diameter (in) 1.940 in. Exhaust Valves Included Yes Exhaust Valve Diameter (in) 1.500 in. Valve Springs Included Yes Outside Diameter of Outer Spring (in) 1.480 in. Damper Spring Included No Retainers Included Yes Locks Included Yes Valve Stem Seals Included Yes Rocker Arm Studs Included Yes Rocker Arm Nut Thread Size 3/8-24 in. Rocker Arms Included No Rocker Arm Nuts Included No Guideplates Included No Accessory Bolt Holes Drilled Yes Valve Guides Included No Valve Seats Machined No Steam Holes Drilled No Oiling Style Through pushrod Machined for O-Ring No Heat Crossover No Quantity Sold individually. Notes L98 based geometry. Calculator Compression Calculator === Block http://www.chevy-camaro.com/chevy-camaro-chevy-engine-block-codes.asp?group=6 === Casting Years CID HP Main Notes 10243880 1995-00 350 2/4 Gen.I crate motors and "ZZ4", roller cam, one piece rear seal

[finallyavette]

Most everything is taken apart and labeled. Will post some pics of the rod bearings with some nice heat marks, crank bearing looked great but we will replace them anyway. Parts order is on the way, new pistons, rods, rings, seals = $550 with some internet searching. SCAT rods, Sealed Power pistons, stainless rings, tri-metal bearings, and fel-pro seals. :D I might need a machine shop that can press-fit my rods to the pistons after balancing, not confident I can heat the rod ends and get the wrist pin in on all 8 without messing at least one of them up. Anyone got any recommendations for a trusted machine shop? Pulling out the digital calipers to make sure journals are spec, or that's going to go to the machine shop too. Looking for .002 on a chevy for tolerances.

[finallyavette]

And waiting on the balancer puller and ordering parts. All the tolerances checked out and there is little to no scoring on the crank journals.

More parts came today, at about $1100 including all the tools I have purchased. Learning a lot about SBC engines too.

Need to pull balancer, timing, cam, and then give everything a good cleaning. Bottle brushes, brake cleaner (b/c it leaves no residue) - then put it back together before all the AZ dust infects it.

[LastC3]

Lookin good Jim ..... glad to hear it going to be just a refresh ....... you';ll be back slammin gears in no time !!!!

[finallyavette]

Thanks !! Getting is all back together and running without an explosion will be exciting.

So here are the rod bearings, one was spun or at least starting to spin as the tang is almost gone. A few of the others were starting to wear funny. Surprisingly it wasn't on the cylinder that bent a rod, so I'm glad I it happened or else this could have been much worse.

I've seen bearings that were much more worn, so I think this engine just got ran either low on oil or with sludge and got hot. I found some 'globs' of gooey oil stuck in various places in the pan.

I press-fit my rods, figured what the hell - it would cost almost the same to have a shop fix it If I screwed it up. It worked pretty well with a MAPP gas torch and a shot of WD40 to lube the piston.

Working on cleaning and rebuilding the heads next. Called one of my motorhead friends that builds bubba trucks and he said to to basically soak them in brake cleaner. It won't leave a residue and will eat all the carbon.

http://www.amazon.com/Simple-Green-13406-Aircraft-Precision/dp/B001VXU7OE/

Or this if you have aluminum parts like my heads.

http://www.orisonmarketing.com/cleaners/piston/carbon.html

And probably the best if you can find it or want to order it direct.

[LastC3]

Is your crank okey /??? i'd be a little concerned it you had movement in those bearings ...... how bout the mains .???? .... would certainly mic them all just to make certain ..... sounds like you're on your way .... and keep us posted ......

Great thread !!!!