OK...lets talk about high octane fuels and your car

[NicD]

Wow, interesting stuff re: Ken Kelly

Yeah, everybody needed a "Top secret" B1 or T1 cam from MTI, or your shit was never going to go fast. I think they were HUGE in the 22x range

I spent a lot of time in Houston with Little Elvis back in those days working on Vipers for Hen-shit and tuning Gallant's stuff. We worked getting that first Venom 1000 right, and then Dave Inall closed Incon and left John holding the bag for tens of thousands of dollars. We had five or six cars needing the kit and nary a one to be had.

Gotta love the old school shit from back then.

Good old Dave Inall, luckily my buddy Dug actually received his kit back in the day for the 4th gen f-body, he was on the cusp of when everybody got screwed. I still remember the double injector harness and box for adding the required fuel and what a cluster that was before any real tuning solutions. Dave Inall was back in the states pitching APS kits here in town to a few shops a few years back since he started working with them and there were more then a few people that would have loved to have caught up with him after all this time.

[Two Fangs]

I think a few may have. Especially now, if you live in the states, you are hard-pressed to get a kit. You may be aware, but there was a scuffle at SEMA the first year APS showed up, someone recognized his name badge, and it was on. The one I really felt sorry for in that whole deal was Tom Porter. Really interesting that we were both running in the same circles, per se.

[FNBADAZ06]

Time to bust out the old school MAF translator to lean that sucker out further without delving into the PCM. That with the higher octane fuel and maybe a timing tricker would do some neat things while technically still being on the stock tune.

NOW you're talking !!!!!

The MF103 I have from Halltech is supposed to perform some minor MAF tranlating (if that's the proper term for it)to compensate for the under reporting of the additional air flow this CAI is purportedly providing.

"Now both dynos above were done with our thinner wall FG107 and CF112 units, which require tuning to recalibrate the MAF transfer curve.

Our new units do not. The Super Bee MF103 has the same MAF read area scaling as stock. The transfer curve and MAF read is so clean that nothing needs to be done to the MAF tables, so stock will run clean and mean, without tuning at all."

I never had the wideband on my dyno runs from last year when I didn't have this MF103 Super Bee CAI, so I can't say what my AFR was at those times.

Maxing this tune out, without actually "tuning" the car, has been my goal the last 12 months. I don't think I saw any real change in the AFR on my latest dyno pulls when I switched to the 50/50 mix, but the Sunoco GT+ had just a touch different stoich of 13.7...and only being mixed 50/50, I didn't know if it would actually shows any significant changes to the reported WB AFR.

My current AFR's may be totally the result of the MF103.

The 50/50 mix fuel may have provided the gains solely by eliminating the KR, and by creating higher cylinder pressures with the max 25* TT provided by the high octane table.

Interesting shit.

[Two Fangs]

The Mustang guys have been relocating the MAF and "translating" the signal to lean it out for quite some time. With what Nic is talking about, is with a small electronic device, we can vary the frequency signal going to the PCM telling it that there is less air going through the throttle body (the larger 103 does this too, to some extent, as it slows the air down). He sees the same thing I see, there is room to pick up some power just by manipulating the A/F curve a tic. Maybe you already know his and I am just patronizing you, if that is the case, it is not my intent

[FNBADAZ06]

The Mustang guys have been relocating the MAF and "translating" the signal to lean it out for quite some time.

With what Nic is talking about, is with a small electronic device, we can vary the frequency signal going to the PCM telling it that there is less air going through the throttle body (the larger 103 does this too, to some extent, as it slows the air down). He sees the same thing I see, there is room to pick up some power just by manipulating the A/F curve a tic.

Maybe you already know his and I am just patronizing you, if that is the case, it is not my intent

Got it !!!!

I had read what Jim Hall had written with regards to the MAF sensors and the re-calibration of the MAF tables to adjust for the greater air flow his CAI's provide. The Super Bee MF103 is supposed to be so close to the stock airbridge (with reporting the airflow/mass), that the additional air the MF103 supplies at WOT should lean the stock AFR out a bit. I've read that the stock LS7 sits around 11.2:1 at WOT, does that sound about right ?

[Two Fangs]

The math says 11.44, but who's paying that much attention, LOL

Jim concerns me from time to time, that guy has his own way of doing things, that's for sure.

For instance, the 103 air tube is not supplying any more air. The throttle body is already the restriction. But, since the air tube is bigger, the velocity of the air traveling through it drops. This drop in velocity is recognized by the MAF sensor as a decease in airflow. It then summarily leans out the mixture. The big 103mm pipe has nothing to do with a massive influx of additional air, but it would be cool if it did.

Now, does Jim know this and he is explaining the leaning out as more air as a marketing gimmick, or does he really believe the unit is providing so much additional air, the mixture is leaning out?

Like I said, I don't know about that guy sometimes.

[FNBADAZ06]

The math says 11.44, but who's paying that much attention, LOL

Jim concerns me from time to time, that guy has his own way of doing things, that's for sure.

For instance, the 103 air tube is not supplying any more air. The throttle body is already the restriction. But, since the air tube is bigger, the velocity of the air traveling through it drops. This drop in velocity is recognized by the MAF sensor as a decease in airflow. It then summarily leans out the mixture. The big 103mm pipe has nothing to do with a massive influx of additional air, but it would be cool if it did.

Now, does Jim know this and he is explaining the leaning out as more air as a marketing gimmick, or does he really believe the unit is providing so much additional air, the mixture is leaning out?

Like I said, I don't know about that guy sometimes.

Could it be that the OEM airbridge and filter was the biggest restriction to airflow, with the MAF calibarated for that specific combo's air flow capabilities ?

I guess that would be very hard to believe...that the OEM airbridge and filter would have so little buffer room up and over the max airflow requirements for the OEM throttle body assembly....

It would make sense to me that the under reporting of airflow, as you described above, would infact lean out the AFR, which in turn would increase engine output. I'm so unfamiliar with how the factory tune's AFR look on a graph...seeing where it's peaks and valleys are. I'm wondering if what my dyno sheet shows is infact a slight reduction in AFR at several areas in the RPM range ?

[Two Fangs]

It could be.

And I am sure Nic will chime in here eventually to agree or disagree, but here are the lessons I have learned.

When it comes to intake tubes, the only real benefits come if they:

• reduce the number of turns the inlet air has to make on its way to the throttle body
• are able to grab air from an area that is cooler than the OEM location, or
• both

I have been able to tune cars with stock intakes that work extremely well and are within a HP or two of the aftermarket offerings, unless the aftermarket offering fits one of the above criteria. The OEM intakes typically perform just as well with nothing more than a K&N to reduce any potential losses through a crappy paper element.

I have a hard time accepting the benefits of Jim's C6 intake tubes solely on airflow over stock, because I do not believe they meet the above criteria, with the caveat of a beehive type arrangement, or a vararam/honker design that pulls air from a cooler location.

The new Hitachi MAF location is very important, because it is very sensitive. We can work around it, but like anything else it costs money.

Just my thoughts

[Jon]

Time to bust out the old school MAF translator to lean that sucker out further without delving into the PCM. That with the higher octane fuel and maybe a timing tricker would do some neat things while technically still being on the stock tune.

Can we do some of that old school stuff with my LS3 to optimize what I have, while still maintaining my warranty?

[NicD]

Been busy with the holidays so I can finally come back and reply. Yeah the thing I look for in an aftermarket CAI is to find the ones that have the largest filter, least amount of bends, biggest plenums, and coolest air locations. Also having to extensively recalibrate the MAF table doesn't necessarily mean that it flows more than one that has minor adjustments, just that the sensor is in a lower velocity / bigger plenum area than stock. Jon, If you can actually find the old MAF translator it could possibly be setup to optimize your configuration but you would be going through trial and error with it with a wideband, not to mention the frequency ranges they have are more appropriate for the older 75mm MAFs as the newer ones definitely have a truncated comparable frequency range vs airflow.

[Jon]

With GM being able to see everything you do now, maybe there would be a market for a new version to work with the card style MAF. Who wants to make one?

[LastC3]

Awesome stuff here guys ..... thanks to all for taking the time for an open discussion .... my un-learned perception tells me that most of this information is relevant not only to the LS motors, but may also be relevant our earlier motors as well .... at least as it relates to tuning ..... ????

Good Job Guys !!!