C4orce2 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Since I was having cold start and rolling idle issues, I decided to go ahead and have C4orce2 tuned at Dyno-Comp in Scottsdale. They have a Dyno Dynamics loaded dyno where they can tune 2WD or 4WD vehicles. They have tuned many CTSV Caddys in the past so I knew they could tune my car since it has the same computer (E67). On their dyno (as is the case with most loaded dynos)for 2WD cars with automatics there is a 27% power loss from SAE net horsepower to wheel horsepower. When I went to Chuck's Speed shop, they were unable to tune the car, but said that their loaded dyno showed a 30% loss. Dyno-Comp uses the 27% figure and states that it is conservative. Now to the good stuff, after working with my car using the HP program, the car dynoed out at 422.6 hp at the wheels and 440 tq at the wheels. Using the 27% loss figure, that puts the car at 578 SAE net horsepower and 602 SAE net torque. They were pleased with the results and felt that the tune was as close to perfect as I was probably going to get. This is a 60+ hp gain over any other results. I took a couple of short videos of pulls and I will see if I can figure out how to post them later tonight. See many of you this weekend. I was able to add two short videos showing some of the work done by Dyno-Comp to my photobucket. None of the pulls on the videos were the final one establishing the final numbers. Go to my photobucket and look for the album called "dyno pulls 2-3-11". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buccaneer Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 That's awesome Larry and congrats! FYI a Dyno Dynamics dyno normally reads lower numbers than other dyno's according to the EFI instructor in CA by about 15%. It would be interesting to see what it reads on a DynoJET dyno, I'll beat it reads better (bragging) numbers. Nice numbers anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest azz061 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 very nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C4orce2 Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 That's awesome Larry and congrats! FYI a Dyno Dynamics dyno normally reads lower numbers than other dyno's according to the EFI instructor in CA by about 15%. It would be interesting to see what it reads on a DynoJET dyno, I'll beat it reads better (bragging) numbers. Nice numbers anyway. Tom, I believe your EFI instructor is correct. The owner of Dyno-Comp said they tell everyone their numbers are 8% lower than a DynoJet, as opposed to 15%, just to be conservative. That way no one gets pissed at him. I'm sure a DynoJet would give me even better numbers, but I'm more than satisfied with these. Next time we have some pulls at Loud Pedal, I'll put it on their DynoJet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest azz061 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 well lets see what that thing can do at the track! Having nice dyno numbers is great but performance for all your hard work at the track will really be rewarding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grape Ape Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Pretty impressive. I would be very happy with that. Good job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C4orce2 Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 well lets see what that thing can do at the track! Having nice dyno numbers is great but performance for all your hard work at the track will really be rewarding! Sorry, the only track my car will ever see is the ever changing track from my house to the next car show. Besides, with only a Dana 36 with 3.73 gears in the rear, if I put on drag radials and race it, the rear end will be shot. For now anyway I've spent enough money! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest badbobs95 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Well Larry, that car of yours couldn't have asked for a better owner. You've done quite a job with that beauty! Way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C4orce2 Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 Well Larry, that car of yours couldn't have asked for a better owner. You've done quite a job with that beauty! Way to go. Thanks. See you Sat morning, then Sat lunch, and finally Sat afternoon. Should be a GREAT DAY of vette fun! I'm planning on getting to Cars & Coffee around 8:30 and may start a camp fire to keep warm. So when you get there, look for the smoke! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FNBADAZ06 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Awesome work Larry...and congrat's !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desertdawg Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Using the 27% loss figure, that puts the car at 578 SAE net horsepower and 602 SAE net torque. I'm sorry Larry, I've been waiting for awhile to see your numbers. the 422 at the wheels I can accept with the LS3 hot cam motor from GM, most LS3's are getting 380's stock, but I think your inflating the numbers just a bit to much here... A stock LS3 dyno's an advertised 436 BHP at the factory, so your saying with the GM hot cam and LT headers you gained 142 hp ??? Maybe I'm really lost, but they advertise the GM LS3 hot cam as a 50 hp gain at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C4orce2 Posted February 5, 2011 Author Share Posted February 5, 2011 Using the 27% loss figure, that puts the car at 578 SAE net horsepower and 602 SAE net torque. I'm sorry Larry, I've been waiting for awhile to see your numbers. the 422 at the wheels I can accept with the LS3 hot cam motor from GM, most LS3's are getting 380's stock, but I think your inflating the numbers just a bit to much here... A stock LS3 dyno's an advertised 436 BHP at the factory, so your saying with the GM hot cam and LT headers you gained 142 hp ??? Maybe I'm really lost, but they advertise the GM LS3 hot cam as a 50 hp gain at best. I know the numbers are hard to believe; I felt the same way at first. On the CF one member had the same questions. Here is what I told him based upon what I have been told and shown: "You cannot compare my engine to the stock LS3. I have a LS3 "hot cam" crate engine from GM Performance. GM advertises that engine as 480 flywheel hp and 475 torque. When I got it everyone told me that GM dramatically underrated the engine: no one ever sues them for getting more power than advertised. It has the GM performance cam in the engine already. Before having Dyno-Comp tune the car I had it dynoed on a DynoJet dyno and another loaded dyno, both here in the Phoenix area. The shops told me that on a DynoJet that most people use to rate their power, the power loss between SAE net hp and tq on a 2WD automatice tranny car is 17-20%. On the loaded dyno we used the shop told me the loss was 30%. Using those numbers, the car was already putting out around 520 SAE net hp and around the same tq. Both shops looked at the programing and said there was a lot of additional hp and tq that could be obtained with a good tune. Finding the right shop for the tune took a while since the car is running on a GM E67 computer which is the same computer as used in the Caddy CTSVs. The EFI Live program has a hard time tuning these so I searched for a company that had tuned those computers already. I found Dyno-Comp here in Scottsdale. They use the HP Tuner program and tune CTSVs, mercedes, BMWs, and other high-ent cars. They said the HP program did not have the same problems with the E67 computers that EFI Live did so I took it to them for the tune. They use a Dyno Dynamics loaded dyno that can tune both 2WD and 4WD vehicles. The manufacturer of that equipment states that on a 2WD car with an automatic the % of loss from SAE net to wheel hp and tq is 27% (lower than the other loaded dyno). They believe that is even conservative. An EFI Live instructor told one of my club members that the difference between the Dyno Dynamics dyno and the DynoJet dyno is actually 15% which would put the Dyno Dynamics dyno at a loss of 32-35% (17-20% plus 15%). That again shows that the 27% figure would seem to be conservative. After the tune, the wheel hp came out at 422.6 and the wheel tq came out at 440. These numbers are obviously much higher than a stock LS3. After saying all this, who the hell really knows! All I can go by it what I've been told and shown. I do know that everyone who is using the LS3 "hot cam crate engine is getting well over 500 hp and tq. I have personally meet 2 other car owners that have used the same engine in 70s Chevells and they are getting right around 550. The LS3 "hot cam" simply is a great engine, and put together with my intake system, long tube headers and 3" exhaust all the way, I believe the numbers reported to me are accurate. Thanks for your questions." Tom was the one who told me about what the EFI Live instructor said about the two types of dynos. You can go to the website for Dyno-Comp in Scottsdale to confirm their 27% loss figure. They do a good job of explaining the loss calculations. However, they use the 27% figure in a very conservative way just to be on the safe side. The way they do it, if you have 500 hp at the wheel on a 2WD automatic car, you would take 500 x 1.27 to get to the net flywheel hp (SAE net). They know that the correct forumla would be 500/.73 instead. The owner is aware of the correct forumla but uses the other one to be safe. I used the correct forumla and took the 422.6 hp and the 440 tq (both at the wheels) and divided them by .73 to get the SAE net 578 hp and 602 tq. Personally since I never plan on racing the car, I do not care what the actualy numbers are. I got it tuned because I was having cold start and rolling idle issues with the existing program in the E67. A lot of the problem turned out to be caused by the way my air intake was built and the fact that I'm only getting 55psi pressure from the fuel pump instead of the recommended 60psi. Dyno-Comp was able to tune around those issues and otherwise greatly increase the power. Since everyone is used to using numbers reported on DynoJets like the old dyno at Loud Pedal, the next time we have a dyno day at LPM I will put the car on their machine for comparison just to make everyone happy. Remember, right after I got the car I took it to them when it was 109 degrees outside and without any tuning it showed 395 hp at the wheels already. Mike told me that I should add 15 to 20 hp for temperature adjustment. Even at the 395 it was already right at 500 hp using the usual 20% decrease for automatics. Like I said on CF, who the hell really knows! Everyone kept asking me for numbers so I've given the numbers reported to me. See you in a few hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOXXOH Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Dyno results for non-racers (unlike those who use the dyno as a tuning tool) are like prostitutes who tell you how good you were to inflate your ego, so you'll return for more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C4orce2 Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 Dyno results for non-racers (unlike those who use the dyno as a tuning tool) are like prostitutes who tell you how good you were to inflate your ego, so you'll return for more. The car that came off the dyno before mine went on is used for racing, along with three other cars in their shop that day. But the next time I see the owner of the shop who does the tuning himself I'll be sure and tell him that in your opinion he inflated my numbers since I'm a non-racer, just to keep me coming back. You are probably right. He must have a "Racer/Non-Racer" switch somewhere in his HP Tuner program or on his dyno so he can artifically jack up the numbers for non-racers like me. Just one question though, if a tuner were going to jack up the numbers, would he be more inclined to do it for non-racers, most of whom never even get their cars dynoed, or for racers who spend all their time with new mods and tuning their cars to the limit? Which group is more likely to "return for more"? Maybe Mike or Nic should answer that question for all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest azz061 Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie44 Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 This is why I've never given much credence to dyno numbers. Every dyno is different and a lot is weather when dyno'd. Everyone has a twist on how, when or who was operating the dyno. Who cares if I have 800 hp because someone out there has 1000 hp. If you're not going to use it what good is hp? Bottom line, a time slip doesn't lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOXXOH Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Dyno results for non-racers (unlike those who use the dyno as a tuning tool) are like prostitutes who tell you how good you were to inflate your ego, so you'll return for more. The car that came off the dyno before mine went on is used for racing, along with three other cars in their shop that day. But the next time I see the owner of the shop who does the tuning himself I'll be sure and tell him that in your opinion he inflated my numbers since I'm a non-racer, just to keep me coming back. You are probably right. He must have a "Racer/Non-Racer" switch somewhere in his HP Tuner program or on his dyno so he can artifically jack up the numbers for non-racers like me. Just one question though, if a tuner were going to jack up the numbers, would he be more inclined to do it for non-racers, most of whom never even get their cars dynoed, or for racers who spend all their time with new mods and tuning their cars to the limit? Which group is more likely to "return for more"? Maybe Mike or Nic should answer that question for all of us. I think you missed the point. With different dynos, different conditions, and producing different results, there is an opportunity for the operator to give you numbers that can be manipulated by generalized percentages to make you feel good (ego inflation), even if the raw data says otherwise. The racers don't care what the numbers are, because they're only looking at the differential between the first and subsequent pulls to verify the tuning is going the right direction. The racers confirm their tuning with a timeslip, while the non-racers only method is to go to another dyno and compare results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C4orce2 Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 Dyno results for non-racers (unlike those who use the dyno as a tuning tool) are like prostitutes who tell you how good you were to inflate your ego, so you'll return for more. The car that came off the dyno before mine went on is used for racing, along with three other cars in their shop that day. But the next time I see the owner of the shop who does the tuning himself I'll be sure and tell him that in your opinion he inflated my numbers since I'm a non-racer, just to keep me coming back. You are probably right. He must have a "Racer/Non-Racer" switch somewhere in his HP Tuner program or on his dyno so he can artifically jack up the numbers for non-racers like me. Just one question though, if a tuner were going to jack up the numbers, would he be more inclined to do it for non-racers, most of whom never even get their cars dynoed, or for racers who spend all their time with new mods and tuning their cars to the limit? Which group is more likely to "return for more"? Maybe Mike or Nic should answer that question for all of us. I think you missed the point. With different dynos, different conditions, and producing different results, there is an opportunity for the operator to give you numbers that can be manipulated by generalized percentages to make you feel good (ego inflation), even if the raw data says otherwise. The racers don't care what the numbers are, because they're only looking at the differential between the first and subsequent pulls to verify the tuning is going the right direction. The racers confirm their tuning with a timeslip, while the non-racers only method is to go to another dyno and compare results. Well then I apologize to everyone for even posting the numbers. I got the car tuned because I was having cold start and rolling idle problems. Everyone on this forum and CF kept asking me for the final numbers. I posted what was given to me. I regret even doing that now and will not make that mistake again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastC3 Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Dude /// thx for posting em up .... great to see results of a project like this .... one can debate the hell out of the results and what it means to who ...... but what it means to you is what's most important ... great numbers for a C4 ... and positive results for the project ............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie44 Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 This is exactly the problem. I can't remember a dyno thread that didn't end up with a disagreement over how accurate the numbers were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerVette Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Well then I apologize to everyone for even posting the numbers. I got the car tuned because I was having cold start and rolling idle problems. Everyone on this forum and CF kept asking me for the final numbers. I posted what was given to me. I regret even doing that now and will not make that mistake again. Meh, everyone has an opinion and many have them locked & loaded for every occasion and unfortunately it really discourages posting.... but that's expect on CF. Whatever the case, if you're enjoying it from the driver's seat then that's what matters. So, how do you enjoy driving it with all the added power? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C4orce2 Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 Well then I apologize to everyone for even posting the numbers. I got the car tuned because I was having cold start and rolling idle problems. Everyone on this forum and CF kept asking me for the final numbers. I posted what was given to me. I regret even doing that now and will not make that mistake again. Meh, everyone has an opinion and many have them locked & loaded for every occasion and unfortunately it really discourages posting.... but that's expect on CF. Whatever the case, if you're enjoying it from the driver's seat then that's what matters. So, how do you enjoy driving it with all the added power? Its fantastic! This is my 5th vette and by far the fastest. I have to be very careful though since it is easy to break the tires loose without traction control, but that is part of the fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerVette Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 it is easy to break the tires loose without traction control, but that is part of the fun. It sure is!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desertdawg Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Larry, sorry for making waves I wasn't questioning the dyno results, I thought 422 was pretty nice at the wheels with the cam and an auto. But factoring in the 27% is where I thought it was off. If it was me I would brag about the 422 at the wheels, those are real numbers and not a guess! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C4orce2 Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 Larry, sorry for making waves I wasn't questioning the dyno results, I thought 422 was pretty nice at the wheels with the cam and an auto. But factoring in the 27% is where I thought it was off. If it was me I would brag about the 422 at the wheels, those are real numbers and not a guess! Not a problem at all. The basic problem is that wheel horsepower measured on a DynoJet (LPM's older dyno)is much higher than measured on a Dyno Dynamics loaded dyno. I beleive the new loaded dyno at LPM is also a Dyno Dynamics loaded dyno. It is not the same as the one at Dyno-Comp since LPM's can only tune 2WD cars while Dyno-Comp's can tune 2WD or 4WD cars. However, I'm sure when LPM starts using their new loaded dyno they will tell everyone that there is a difference. Dyno-Comp conservatively says the difference is 8%, while Tom indicated that a EFI Live instuctor said the difference is 15%. Since most, if not all, of the wheel horsepower that all of the forum members report is measured on a DynoJet dyno, comparing those numbers to mine measured on the Dyno Dynamics loaded dyno is like comparing appels to oranges. That's why they told me to convert the numbers to SAE net figures using the 27% loss number given them by the dyno manufacturer. None of it really matters to me. With only a Dana 36 I cannot go racing without having to spend even more money on my "rear end". See you in GB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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