Jump to content

The Treehuggers Are Coming! The Treehuggers Are Coming!


Two Fangs

Recommended Posts

This is kind of a follow-up to Phill's post in the off-topic section about E15 being on the horizon.

This news is breaking and changing daily, so what we will all see may be different than some of the information posted here.

Is it as bad as you think? Read on. We will all know for certain on or before October 15th.

Please PM me if you need references for the facts cited here.

Holy crap, E15. First there was E10, now E15, what are all of these tree hugging knuckleheads in Washington doing to my freedom? I remember back when sex was safe and racing was dangerous, now we have the exact opposite and my lawmakers are so busy trying to hold on to their seats in Washington, all I am going to get out of them on this issue is an empty promise anyway. What in the world does all of this mean? Should I just give up and go buy a hybrid? I thought we were through all of this “gas-a-hol” crap when we made it through the gas shortage back in the Carter era?

Well, as with anything that has to do with pollution, money and politics today, there is good and bad here. The real challenge with the bad news is we do not know how bad it is yet. More than likely, we will see the implementation of E15 at gas pumps in the near future (collective gasp). And, if the Petroleum lobby has their way, a stipulation will be provided that allows for an ethanol-free choice for consumers. What we will also see is the continuation of E10, according to reports today (more on this in a bit). The USDA has made sure that the EPA is aware of the benefits of ethanol, it is a renewable fuel source that decreases our dependence on foreign oil. There is even some evidence that the exhaust emissions are improved, but these reports are easily disputed and are no longer the strongest case for ethanol based fuels.

The good news is what E10 has accomplished for us is a means to subsidize American corn farmers and keep some of the money spent at the pump here at home. Ethanol is also a good anti-knock agent, taking the place of MTBE after it was found to be slowly killing us. Also, another 50 percent of this ethanol revenue going to the US economy would be even greater news, so more than likely we will see it.

There is a mounting concern, however, that a wholesale 50% increase in ethanol production will lead to an ethanol shortage, increasing ethanol-based fuel costs. Many pipelines are not equipped to transport ethanol, which places distribution concerns on refineries, since the fuel has to be transported by rail or by truck, primarily. E15 will likely increase NOx levels and also an agent called acetaldehyde, which is a carcinogen. This is based on an Australian report, with more years of ethanol blended gasoline data than we have in our own country.

So, with E15 we may be able to keep more of our money at home, maybe it helps pollution, maybe not, and we are more than likely going to see it. Hey, wait a second, isn’t this a car enthusiast’s site?

Yes it is, so now for the cars, our precious 8 cylinder beasts we keep stabled and at the ready. How will this new fuel affect them?

The news here is mixed. If you own a car made after 2007, the only real difference you will notice is decreased mileage. Most modern cars are well equipped with fuel sensors and components that can handle the additional ethanol. It takes more fuel per pound of air to produce adequate power, since the ethanol has less potential energy by volume. Older cars are where the concern lies, we will bust these older cars into two groups 2001-2006 and pre-2001. 2001-2006 cars will do a respectable job of running on E15 when they are in closed loop. One of the byproducts of the ethanol combustion process is oxygen. This oxygen is sensed by the oxygen sensor, which in turn richens the air/fuel mixture and allows the vehicle to run respectably on E10 and E15. The problem with these cars is when the car is not listening to the oxygen sensors; at Wide Open throttle (WOT) and during warm-up. During these times, the car runs off of pre-calibrated tables that do not necessarily allow for the extra richness required by the use of E10 and E15. Currently, factory calibrations are set up very rich at WOT, so there is less risk for damage with E10, but with the addition of E15, well, that is why there is extensive testing being conducted at the moment. The biggest challenge for these cars is at start-up, where they may run lean and exhibit goofy behavior until they get warmed up and the oxygen sensors take over. Cars produced before 2001, and all off-road equipment (boats, motorcycles, lawn mowers, etc.) are where the greatest concern lies. Some of these vehicles will not handle this fuel effectively, because the components they use were designed before mandates required them to be compliant with ethanol, especially at a 15% concentration. These mandates were not recognized and fully acted upon by auto manufacturers until after the expansion of the ethanol market, which was driven by the Renewable Fuels Standard (RFS) under the Energy Policy Act of 2005. Some manufacturers saw it coming and put things in place so the cars would operate well in an ethanol-based fuel environment, but certainly not all.

For these reasons not all vehicles can use E15, some vehicles will still require the use of E10 or straight gasoline. Lisa Jackson, the EPA Administrator stated on September 27th, 2010 that the EPA expects to release its decision on E15 ethanol by October 15th. This decision would be limited to 2007 and later model vehicles. The EPA is not testing cars from 2000 and earlier model years, and plans are not finalized how fuel would be provided for those cars, although labeling restrictions are expected to warn motorists from fueling older cars with E15. To force these vehicles to go to E15 is not in the best interest of politicians or fuel producers. Anything can happen, but as of today, legislation from the EPA is allowing for consumer self-policing, allowing drivers of older vehicles to use E10 (or possibly even straight gasoline if the petroleum lobby gets their way), while owners of newer vehicles can use E15. Naturally, the United States Department of Agriculture states that the E15 will be cheaper, luring those that can use E15 to the pumps that have it. On that, we will have to wait and see.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

yup ethanol is cheaper but with less bang for the buck it still costs the same possibly more. remember leaded fuel? hehe a bit before my time but from what ive heard the gearheads ranted and raved and ultimately lead was removed and valve seats droped everywhere :willy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

remember leaded fuel? hehe a bit before my time but from what ive heard the gearheads ranted and raved and ultimately lead was removed and valve seats droped everywhere

I remember those days very well. However, I don't remember guys ranting to get rid of lead in the fuel, that was the EPA. The ranting I remember was "after" the lead was removed and valve seats were getting destroyed...thus the hardened head seats of today. I'll just throw in a gallon or two of Toluene. :smilelol:3gears:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Screw it, throw ina packet of Kool-Aid, at least then when it blows up, you'll have red or green or purple colored smoke :lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So essentially E15 is a tax increase. Farmers get subsidies from our income taxes to grow corn to produce a fuel that reduces mpg and we pay taxes based on gallons used. :banghead

And the politicians are selling this as independence (?) from foreign oil?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I see a very limited market for this stuff. $25,000 upgrade to be able to store and pump it? Not many gas stations are going to want to do that....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the market, i.e. consumers, don't buy into this, it'll die just like the "green" chip bags from Frito-lay.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the market, i.e. consumers, don't buy into this, it'll die just like the "green" chip bags from Frito-lay.

I wonder if there is a web site that identifies local stations that carry "straight" fuel (non-E10) ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is, it is lame, but there is.

I'll see if I can hunt it down.

***EDIT*** Here it is:

http://pure-gas.org/

Told you it was lame, LOL

:lol We've got to drive all the way to Payson's Texaco to get ethanol free fuel :facepalm:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does it increase the resistance to detonation? That's all I could care about.

No it won't, it's still shitty 91 octane so your mileage will just go down. :(
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is not a given. It is possible that our E15 will be 91, but E15 may be able to meet AZ's CO emission requirements while still alowing for 93 octane. If it will not meet the CO emission requirements, they will add heptane to drop the octane back to 91. We will have to wait and see. One way to get it to sell is to make it 93 octane.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So essentially E15 is a tax increase. Farmers get subsidies from our income taxes to grow corn to produce a fuel that reduces mpg and we pay taxes based on gallons used. :banghead

And the politicians are selling this as independence (?) from foreign oil?

If you really believe that'll be your only choice then pull your head out of the sand. The laws of supply and demand still apply and there aren't enough vehicles on the road that can use the stuff so it's hardly going to be your only choice at the pumps any time soon.

I'll go even further and point out how poorly AZ has adopted E85. I would love to see E85 take off around here but as it is you can't rely on it being available if you were to need fuel.

It should reduce our dependence on oil period, foreign or domestic. Oil companies make the banking industry look like a bunch of saints. The more we can get towards renewable energy the better.

Imagine the efficiency of a motor that's created solely to be run on E85. It can more than make up any mpg loss with more power as well.

I will also point out how corn is one of the worst foods out there and it's much better spent on fuel than as a dietary staple.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Drew, I agree with you. It is a shame that E-85 has not taken off here. Part of the reason is actually Arizona laws. There is a cap on the amount of ethanol that can be put in our fuels set by the State Legislature and The Arizona Department of Weights and Measures. That cap is at 10% ethanol.

One of the reasons I responded to you that the E15 would increase octane comes from an EPA report that shows what laws states will have to change to allow E15. The EPA fully expects the states to comply, bcause there are tax incentives. Once again, it is allabout money. In Arizona, the following will occur:

  • Remove 10% ethanol blending restriction in Table 2 of R20 Article 7
  • Modify ARS 41-2124 to allow fuels other than Federal RFG or Californa Phase 3 RFG
  • Extend 1 psi vapor pressure offset from AAC R20-2-708 to blends higher thn E10
  • Raise the maximum oxygen content for gasoline in R20-2-708, R20-

    2-751(A)(7)(b) and Table 2 of R20 Article 7

By removing the restrictions we currently have regarding RFG and Vapor Presure standards, we could feasably see the introduction of 93 octane E15. Regardless, these changes will not result in the same crappy 91, but rather a new fuel entirely. Maybe, when this occurs, someone with a sack at The Arizona Department of Weights and Measures, or in the State Legislature will see this as an opportunity to open the door for E85 as well. I guess if you know who they are, write them a letter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Drew, I agree with you. It is a shame that E-85 has not taken off here. Part of the reason is actually Arizona laws. There is a cap on the amount of ethanol that can be put in our fuels set by the State Legislature and The Arizona Department of Weights and Measures. That cap is at 10% ethanol.

One of the reasons I responded to you that the E15 would increase octane comes from an EPA report that shows what laws states will have to change to allow E15. The EPA fully expects the states to comply, bcause there are tax incentives. Once again, it is allabout money. In Arizona, the following will occur:

  • Remove 10% ethanol blending restriction in Table 2 of R20 Article 7
  • Modify ARS 41-2124 to allow fuels other than Federal RFG or Californa Phase 3 RFG
  • Extend 1 psi vapor pressure offset from AAC R20-2-708 to blends higher thn E10
  • Raise the maximum oxygen content for gasoline in R20-2-708, R20-

    2-751(A)(7)(b) and Table 2 of R20 Article 7

By removing the restrictions we currently have regarding RFG and Vapor Presure standards, we could feasably see the introduction of 93 octane E15. Regardless, these changes will not result in the same crappy 91, but rather a new fuel entirely. Maybe, when this occurs, someone with a sack at The Arizona Department of Weights and Measures, or in the State Legislature will see this as an opportunity to open the door for E85 as well. I guess if you know who they are, write them a letter.

Very well put.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...