[ChadC]

in reading one of the other posts here I realized that ACE is missing something that is car related.

How to buy a New/Used car from a dealer
There are several steps one must follow

STEP ONE:
Here is a link to Edmund article called
Confessions of a car sales man
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/artic...62/article.html
...now don’t just read the article and say "gee that was neat." Instead read that as an intel report on Osama Bin Laden and you are the US General ready to deploy Navy SEALS lead by Chuck Norris.
Car sales men are the enemy. They are pure evil with no moral values and only goal is to squeeze you for more money. Car sales men are not your friend, your buddy, your pal. They are pond scum (one step below lawyers).
Now that you know that, you don’t have to be 'Nice' or 'Polite' to them.

STEP TWO:
They will use Political Correctness against you. They will make you feel Guilty, Shy, Embarrassed and Uncomfortable while talking with them. Anything that can do to make you sign the deal THEY want.
Example:
You want to pay $40,000 (per your research) for a car. The sticker is $55000.
The sales man says "Ok so you want to pay $40000? Well let me go ask my manager (the guy in the tower) if he will take $53000." and he walks away quickly so you don’t get a chance to correct him.
Now you are sitting there alone, saying "but I sad $40K not $53K...." You feel aquard to correct the guy. Maybe he misheard you? Maybe they can’t go that low? You like this car. You want to leave but that would be rude without telling the guy.

...... GOTCHA......
He doesn’t need to talk to the manger (the guy in the tower). He is controlling the conversation so you don’t have an opening to leave politely. There is none. There never will be. They want to make it difficult and uncomfortable to leave.
Once you accept the fact that Car Sales Men are Scumbag Douchrockets with no soul. You do not feel guilty getting up and walking away. Because they are sub-human and have no feelings to hurt in the first place.

STEP THREE:
As stated in the Edmunds article, you must have the ability to leave at any time. In doing so don’t give them anything you still need. Drivers License, bank paperwork, title to your trade in car.
Make photo copies in advance and hand it to them when they ask. If they want the original tell them no. They will get it when the deal is signed and the numbers are correct.
If they get shitty. Walk away.

STEP FOUR:
The F&I (Finance and Insurance) guys are just as evil. They will throw numbers at you and have you sign your life away. Then when you leave they call you back 3 days later to say “Gee Sorry the BLA BLA paper work got (lost/stolen/burnt in a fire/bank denied/used to wipe my ass). I need you to resign.”
If you refuse they threaten to take the car.
- The car you have had 3 days to fall in love with.
-The car you have showed to all your friends.
- You will be embarrassed to tell your friends “nope its gone”.
PLUS if the dealer is EVIL… and most of them are. Your trade in is (sold/lost/gone/on a truck) and you now have to walk OR resign the paperwork.

ED. Note
“But Chad that is just plain Illegal! They can t sell your trade in car without the paperwork. “
Yes your right. But don’t be Naive. Just because it illegal doesn’t meant they don’t do it. Dealerships do illegal things all the time and get away with it. They have no soul.

SO Chad. How do YOU buy a car?

For me I do my homework first. For me researching for a car is half the fun of owning it.

Chad rule ONE: By accept the FACT that Car SALESMAN are greasy fart bags. You have no problem wasting there time. The more time you waste from them, the less time they have to steal SSI money from some little old lady who just wants a car to go to the Bingo parlor.
So as part of your research, you must test drive 8 cars on Saturday and 8 cars on Sunday. By DEMOing that many cars you will see a pattern in how the sales man works and you will be more at peace when you walk away (see step TWO). Test drive any car you want. It does not matter if you are in the market for that model. Where else can you spend a Saturday driving all sorts of new cars for free? …cheaper than a movie.

Chad rule TWO: use your bank and get financing up front. They will pre approve you for $xx,xxx amount. Then you Ink a deal with the dealer you cut them a check for the hole amount. For them you are paying in 'cash'. This step alone will save 1.5 hours off the buying process.
Its not uncommon for banks to have a “Car buying guy”. They get good deals and are VERY painless. They go to the same people YOU SHOULD (see below)

Chad rule THREE: Research online for the car you want. All the big dealers put their inventory with pictures online with current pricing. The pricing is very cut throat. If you find the car (or cars) you want go the "Internet Fleet manager'. Its a small office with 3 guys that don’t do any of the tricks listed above (normally). For them its about moving volume not haggling. Its not uncommon for them not to budge on the listed price. It may be $500 over the bottom end and set there.
Bear traps: They only work Monday-Friday 9:00-4:30. So if you find the 'ONE' be prepared to take a half day off from work.

Coyote traps: The "Internet Fleet manager's Office" is very hard to find and is not labeled. For a reason. The sales man on the floor wants your money. So they will lie and misguide you. Its best to call in advance and ask the internet guy for directions to his office.


I’m going to ask the ACE group here for 2 things.
A: Do you want this a sticky for others?

B: Add in other helpful hints for car buying at a dealer.

I’m not looking for
“Dealership XXXXX sucks!/rocks!”

I’m not looking for
“I bought a 1985 Pinto Lime green Bla Bla Bla Bla Bla Bla Bla Bla Bla Bla BORING DETAIL Bla Bla Bla Bla Bla Bla UNLESS POINT Bla Bla Bla Bla THE DEALER RIPPED ME OFF Bla Bla Bla Bla.”
Listen we ALL have been ripped off by a dealer. It sucks.
-Birth
-Taxes
-Gang raped by a dealer
-Death
Rinse and repeat.
What I AM looking for is the latest Gotha’s! Or snags they use to prey on people.

Chad

[Mr Loud Pedal]

nice...

[Christine]

I'm Speechless...

[Quiktrip]

Nice!

[Mregor]

It's best to on the busiest day, usually Sat a.m. Spend a lot of time with the salesman asking questions, whatever. Since this is their best time, if you wast half his day and threaten to leave, you can get the best deal. The slimball will say to themselves, "I just spent half my day on this guy, I got to make the sale."

There is a book, How to Negotiate Anything, that gives lot of good negotiation advice, good for lots of everyday situations.

[Final Effort]

Whats wrong with my 1985 Pinto?

[Grayeagle]

I went to 'school' to be a car salesman.
In 'school' they teach you to make at least 3 offers, startin with 'just how much can I ream this guy for' and after several hours working down to what would be considered a reasonable price with lots of 'I need to talk to my manager' and 'what is important to you, payment or price' ..aka 'negotiating'

I worked at Showcase Honda, then ABC Nissan for several years.
I sold 2 cars a day (my best day) to the same guy who just came in to get a car for his son's graduation.
I was the only guy there who sold a car on Christmas Day one year.

As a salesman .. I HATED to waste time, and despised the pure unabridged horse pucky that 'the system' put on my customers.

I told my customers to *look it up* on autotrader, edmunds, whatever, ..
..get a printout of the dealer invoice price with the options they wanted.
..and bring it.
Tell the jerkoff salesman that is what you will pay if they want to sell a car today.
That is the bottom line.
If not you can go right down the street and get the car there.. not like there's only one dealer in town.
If they say 'I have to talk to my manager' .. tell 'em to give you a call at home, see ya.. and leave.

Like Chad says..never give them ANYTHING they can hold you there with.

If you dont want to do the in person horse around waste a day game, do it online.
(ok sometimes I enjoy goin around test drivin new cars ..especially if I am interested)
Back when Durango first came out (1998)..
Autotrader found a dealer close, got me dealer invoice, and I just drove in and picked the new Durango up ..no BS, had a contact person that I dealt with online at the dealer (Internet sales or whatever they call 'em) and went right to him.. no muss, no fuss, in and out in about a half hour.
Drove that bright red one for two years, then got the itch to get a fully optioned big motor 4wd Durango..
..the local dealer wanted 52k for that Durango, we paid 32k (dealer invoice at the time for everything except the moonroof 4wd patriot blue beauty that we drove for 7 years)

Just say NO to car salesmen.
I am not kiddin .. I got reamed by my supervisor for not lyin to a customer.
Quit that moment.
Loudly.
Screw them.

-Frank (I got a huge kick outta dealin with customers who were straight up, no horsin around. I'd go tell my manager 'the guy has the dealer invoice, do you want to sell him the car today or not, 'cause he's gonna walk if you horse around with 'em .. ROFL)

[Desertdawg]

I always let them do thier country two step process with running to the manager several times, then I walkout when they aren't looking, walk slowly towards what you drove in with and they will come sprinting across the lot.
I bought my crewcab brand new in 93, the salesman chased me across the lot, I told him my bottom line (which was less than I originally started with) and he agreed!!!! We went home happy!

Nice write up Chad!!!

[Yuma Rich]

Is there any clarification on MSRP? Through what little research I did, (I have used familly member discount for the vette and my other car), it appears the same car in different lots may hae a different MSRP on it? So where to find the REAL bottom line?

[Azmotorhead]

PLUS if the dealer is EVIL… and most of them are. Your trade in is (sold/lost/gone/on a truck) and you now have to walk OR resign the paperwork.

ED. Note
“But Chad that is just plain Illegal! They can t sell your trade in car without the paperwork. “
Yes your right. But don’t be Naive. Just because it illegal doesn’t meant they don’t do it. Dealerships do illegal things all the time and get away with it. They have no soul.

You're right there Chad. Long time ago a girlfriend took a car to trade in. 3-5 days later the Dealer said financing fell through,she had to return car or obtain her own financing.(she had bad credit) Dealer had sold off her trade. She took her case to the State Attourney General. Wound up getting a free car. It was a Hyundai though

[Blew X U]

Nice...

[Robert and Elizabeth]

nicely put.

[FLG_Corvette]

You forgot the line about RUNNING away from certain Tempe carlot....

[ChadC]

Is there any clarification on MSRP? Through what little research I did, (I have used familly member discount for the vette and my other car), it appears the same car in different lots may hae a different MSRP on it? So where to find the REAL bottom line?

there is no REAL BOTTEM line.
let me give you a basic example.

I Own Soulless Car Dealer. I want to buy 10 cars from GM. each car is $20K. I don’t have that much cash so I get a special dealer loan of $200K to buy direct from GM (banks are my friends, I push business there way).

"So Chad each car costs $20k?"

No

-Every day that car sits on the lot, the interest on the $200K loan is adding up.
-Bigger car dealers get bigger loans. Bigger loans have different rates.
-There is transport fees tagged to each car.
-there are state fees and taxes tagged on to each car.
-GM screwed up and made 100 red cars (that are slower of course) and are offering a rebate for any dealer that wants to buy 10 red cars. Thereby reducing the cost of the cars.
-some may have a dealer installed options to increase its value (sirius, wheels, window tint, special wax )
-Some may have a factory installed option that is suddenly popular.

There are so many variables that you will never know the real BOTTEM LINE.


However When pricing a car there are several tricks to save you money.

-If you are buying a car within town its not uncommon to have a $300 local deal charge added on. That pays for the Tv, Radio, newspaper ads you see. The dealers get together, pool there money and buy spots in bulk. The commercial is made by GM corporate and the local dealers add there own tags at the end.
- Never pay sticker. If you do its because its a ZR-1 and they saw you a mile away.
- Never pay for window tint. Its a common Phoenix trick to add $450 for window tint. The tint costs them $35, and you have a higher dollar amount to haggle down to.
- Never pay for any special wax(simonize). Its fake. pure scam.
- always get floor mats, and the cup holders (more so for used cars). It may sound stupid, but dealerships make 60% of there money from parts. Lot attendants will pilfer a car so you have to go to the parts people and pay $26.95 for a $0.03 screw (ooh look I have an official GM box!!).
- If this is the car of your dreams, why not go to Las Vegas for it? Dont just look at phoenix. Look at , Phoenix, Goodyear, Tucson, Prescott, flagstaff, Albuquerque, Las Vegas, san Diego, Kingman. You have more options that you know.

-The most important way to save money...... BUY USED! Seriously. A 2 year old car with 22k on the clock will save you 30%. There is still plenty of warranty left.


chad

[Desertdawg]

Also the end of the month deals are better because they all pay for lot insurance on the first of the next month, if it's sold they won't have to pay for another month of coverage...

[dewey]

How about this:


Pay in cash.

[chevy69]

Great post. I eliminate 3 of "their" squares by always paying cash (or arrange your own financing in advance) and never trading in another car. All that's left to negotiate is the purchase price.

[Mr Loud Pedal]

When we bought Jenna's Jeep, I went in with 2 trades. The C5, and her 4runner. We did the usual 3 hour fiasco and came to what I considered a fair deal. Then, when it was all ready to pull the trigger, I pulled the 4runner out of the deal. It was clear this was where they were going to make up the difference in the deal. They were really unhappy about it, but there wasn't anything they could do. The deal was done.

We ended up selling the 4runner for 2k more than the dealer offered. I thought I was pretty slick with that little game.

[Grayeagle]

http://www.carbuyingtips.com/

I learned a few things readin that few pages .. reaffirmed all that Chad and I said, and they even offer a package deal thingy so you can setup your own vehicle purchase using all the ammunition you can get on a particular car.

I didn't know you could get a car below invoice .. you can.
I didn't even think about emailing dealers as a group to have them bid for the opportunity to sell you a car at the lowest possible price ..that is *COOL*
..make THEM sweat

They even provide links directly to finance to enable you to have check in hand when you walk in, after settin up price an all.. sounds painless

Now I am wonderin just how much I can get an '09 coupe for -evil grin-

-Frank

[northslopefirst]

always pay cash and head for the car at least once cerves there game

[postalav8b]

www.truecar.com is another site to put in your bag of tricks. Put in the cars info that you are looking at and it will spit out MSRP / dealer invoice / average price paid local, regional, nation wide / and true dealer cost.

It also will guide for a good price and a great price to offer.

[Buccaneer]

Good info Chad. When buying my truck new I ordered the consumer reports vehicle sheet. It listed all the factory numbers for everything, dealer invoice (what they really paid), list and MSRP. After you decide on all the options, do the math and figure out what the dealer paid for it from the factory and list. The range in the middle is your bargaining price. It was well worth the $12 I paid for it. The truck list was $22,500, the dealer paid $17,900 and I bought it off the lot for $18,450 which I thought was a good and fair price. You will "NEVER" know if you received a good deal without knowing what the dealer paid for the vehicle...period.

Do your homework and shop around. I went to tons of dealers before I found one that would actually deal with me and wanted to sell the truck vs screwing around. I walked out of lots of offices during my search and my wife wasn't happy with me on several occasions for the things I said to the salesman...SCREW them, their wasting my time. When negotiating, "Never" start at there price and work down, start at your price and work up. Like mentioned, buying at the end of the month is usually a better choice, rainy days work and be pre-approved. Never start talking about interest rates if not pre-approved, before you settle on the price of the vehicle and always work on the best deal and then bring up a trade-in if that’s what you are going to do. That way you know exactly what you are getting for the trade. They will get pissy about that time and say you should have mentioned that earlier, but hey, you already settled on the price of the vehicle who cares what they think. Now, how much are you going to give me for my Yugo?
If they bulk, just walk!

This post has been edited by Buccaneer: 20 September 2009 - 08:14 PM

[Drewstein]

always pay cash and head for the car at least once cerves there game

I would have to say buying an asset that will depreciate 30% in a year with cash is not a good idea. Throwing away that kind of money can easily be avoided.

I buy used cars with cash, I lease brand new vehicles and drive them for free.

[Desertdawg]

I lease brand new vehicles and drive them for free.

???
Have you ever stopped and added up all your lease payments? How is that free?
And at the end of the lease you hand it back to them and they give you nothing for all those payments you made!

If you buy something your going to keep then buy it, but if you don't ever want to own something then lease it, in the long run leasing will cost you more though.....